There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Game of Thrones - Dotheaki
From: Lee
2a. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2b. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
From: Alex Fink
2c. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
From: kechpaja
2d. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
From: kechpaja
2e. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
From: Matthew A. Gurevitch
2f. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
From: Eric Christopherson
2g. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
From: Eugene Oh
3.1. Re: R2D2 language
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3.2. Re: R2D2 language
From: Padraic Brown
3.3. Re: R2D2 language
From: Padraic Brown
3.4. Re: R2D2 language
From: Eric Christopherson
3.5. Re: R2D2 language
From: George Corley
4a. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
From: George Corley
4b. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
From: Daniel Bowman
4c. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
From: George Corley
4d. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
From: Fredrik Ekman
4e. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
From: George Corley
5a. Re: Sefdaanian calendar
From: Herman Miller
5b. Re: Sefdaanian calendar
From: MorphemeAddict
6.1. Re: Conlangs in movies (was: R2D2 language)
From: MorphemeAddict
7a. (no subject)
From: Karil Padur
7b. (no subject)
From: yuri
8a. Re: Drac language (was: Conlangs in movies)
From: A. da Mek
8b. Re: Drac language (was: Conlangs in movies)
From: Fredrik Ekman
Messages
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1a. Re: Game of Thrones - Dotheaki
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 3:34 pm ((PDT))
I thought my life was the only one similarly filled with adventure!
Lee
________________________________
From: Sam Stutter
Sent: 4/2/2012 3:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Game of Thrones - Dotheaki
*Pettiness warning*
On 2 Apr 2012, at 20:13, Carsten Becker wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 13:14:27 -0500, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> ISBN 0-7806-7670-X
>
> You mean 978-0-7806-7670-1. Those 10-digit ones have been out of use for
> like 5 years now.
Technically, yes, but the system is largely backward compatible. My life is
*that* exciting.
>
> Cheers
> CB
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:13 pm ((PDT))
On 1 April 2012 21:00, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
> Okay, so far it sounds like Arabic might do what I have in mind. I'm only
> interested in natlangs that do this, because I want to see how natural it
> is. Are there no other natlangs that allow voiced-unvoiced consonant
> clusters?
>
>
Modern Greek has a few of those, although, as far as I can tell, only
across syllable breaks and only when separate morphemes meet in derived
forms. The only examples I can think of right now are εκδρομή: excursion,
picnic, which I've clearly heard pronounced by various Greek people as
[ɛkðroˈmi], and έκδοση: edition, release, issue, pronounced [ˈɛkðosi], both
without assimilation, but there are probably a few more (my dictionary
lists a few examples in [kv] as well).
I also seem to remember that Esperanto has the _kv_ cluster (pronounced
without assimilation, including at the beginning of words like _kvar_: four
and _kvin_: five) because Zamenhof's native dialect of Polish allowed
those. Indeed, Wikipedia's article on Polish phonology mentions that "In
some dialects of Wielkopolska
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland>and the eastern
borderlands <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy>, *w* (/v/) remains voiced
after voiceless consonants."
So two more examples, and both within the Indo-European family. I'd be
surprised if there weren't more examples around the world, although I don't
expect them to be very numerous.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (20)
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2b. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:27 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:06:47 +0200, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>are there any languages that don't make use of devoicing/voicing in
>consonant clusters? That is, are there languages in which a consonant
>cluster such as [sb] or [pz] is found and where these are distinguished
>from the assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
Wikipedia saith:
| Some Khoisan languages are typologically unusual in allowing mixed voicing
| in non-click consonant clusters/contours, such as [dts)_>kx)_>].
(They even have such clusters where one member is a click, at least under a
reasonable analysis.)
Alex
Messages in this topic (20)
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2c. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Posted by: "kechpaja" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:33 pm ((PDT))
Russian has plenty of examples of /kv/ and /tv/ word-initially; as far as I can
hear the /v/ doesn't assimilate. However, when the opposite (/vk/, /vt/)
occurs, assimilation is standard (/vk/ > [fk], /vt/ > [ft]). Other consonants,
however, always assimilate.
On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:27:36 -0400
Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:06:47 +0200, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >are there any languages that don't make use of devoicing/voicing in
> >consonant clusters? That is, are there languages in which a consonant
> >cluster such as [sb] or [pz] is found and where these are distinguished
> >from the assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
>
> Wikipedia saith:
> | Some Khoisan languages are typologically unusual in allowing mixed voicing
> | in non-click consonant clusters/contours, such as [dts)_>kx)_>].
> (They even have such clusters where one member is a click, at least under a
> reasonable analysis.)
>
> Alex
--
Lûk torktas blût spârva alrôrik.
Laws are a poor substitute for true integrity.
Messages in this topic (20)
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2d. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Posted by: "kechpaja" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:33 pm ((PDT))
Russian has plenty of examples of /kv/ and /tv/ word-initially; as far as I can
hear the /v/ doesn't assimilate. However, when the opposite (/vk/, /vt/)
occurs, assimilation is standard (/vk/ > [fk], /vt/ > [ft]). Other consonants,
however, always assimilate.
On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:27:36 -0400
Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:06:47 +0200, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >are there any languages that don't make use of devoicing/voicing in
> >consonant clusters? That is, are there languages in which a consonant
> >cluster such as [sb] or [pz] is found and where these are distinguished
> >from the assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
>
> Wikipedia saith:
> | Some Khoisan languages are typologically unusual in allowing mixed voicing
> | in non-click consonant clusters/contours, such as [dts)_>kx)_>].
> (They even have such clusters where one member is a click, at least under a
> reasonable analysis.)
>
> Alex
Messages in this topic (20)
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2e. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Posted by: "Matthew A. Gurevitch" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 6:39 pm ((PDT))
Sorry to bring up Hebrew again, but kvar- already, and kfar- town, are another
set that matches.
Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: kechpaja <[email protected]>
To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Apr 2, 2012 9:03 pm
Subject: Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Russian has plenty of examples of /kv/ and /tv/ word-initially; as far as I can
hear the /v/ doesn't assimilate. However, when the opposite (/vk/, /vt/)
occurs,
assimilation is standard (/vk/ > [fk], /vt/ > [ft]). Other consonants, however,
always assimilate.
On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:27:36 -0400
Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:06:47 +0200, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >are there any languages that don't make use of devoicing/voicing in
> >consonant clusters? That is, are there languages in which a consonant
> >cluster such as [sb] or [pz] is found and where these are distinguished
> >from the assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
>
> Wikipedia saith:
> | Some Khoisan languages are typologically unusual in allowing mixed voicing
> | in non-click consonant clusters/contours, such as [dts)_>kx)_>].
> (They even have such clusters where one member is a click, at least under a
> reasonable analysis.)
>
> Alex
Messages in this topic (20)
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2f. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 9:42 pm ((PDT))
On Apr 2, 2012, at 6:27 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:06:47 +0200, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> are there any languages that don't make use of devoicing/voicing in
>> consonant clusters? That is, are there languages in which a consonant
>> cluster such as [sb] or [pz] is found and where these are distinguished
>> from the assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
>
> Wikipedia saith:
> | Some Khoisan languages are typologically unusual in allowing mixed voicing
> | in non-click consonant clusters/contours, such as [dts)_>kx)_>].
> (They even have such clusters where one member is a click, at least under a
> reasonable analysis.)
>
> Alex
When I recently tried to reawaken my dormant Japanese using Rosetta Stone, I
noticed that the speakers seemed to pronounce voiced geminates (all of which
are loans AIUI) with mixed voicing, e.g. /dd/ [td].
Messages in this topic (20)
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2g. Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 1:27 am ((PDT))
Would be hard to distinguish between /td/ and merely unreleased /d/ though
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 3 Apr 2012, at 05:42, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 2, 2012, at 6:27 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:06:47 +0200, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> are there any languages that don't make use of devoicing/voicing in
>>> consonant clusters? That is, are there languages in which a consonant
>>> cluster such as [sb] or [pz] is found and where these are distinguished
>>> from the assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
>>
>> Wikipedia saith:
>> | Some Khoisan languages are typologically unusual in allowing mixed voicing
>> | in non-click consonant clusters/contours, such as [dts)_>kx)_>].
>> (They even have such clusters where one member is a click, at least under a
>> reasonable analysis.)
>>
>> Alex
>
> When I recently tried to reawaken my dormant Japanese using Rosetta Stone, I
> noticed that the speakers seemed to pronounce voiced geminates (all of which
> are loans AIUI) with mixed voicing, e.g. /dd/ [td].
Messages in this topic (20)
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3.1. Re: R2D2 language
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:29 pm ((PDT))
On 2 April 2012 22:43, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> That's actually really common for conlangs written for movies, from what I
> understand (although lots of people here would know a lot better than I).
> Actors apparently have little interest in learning IPA (I cannot conceive
> why, but you know . . . actors). I imagine the same would hold for those
> writing for fans.
>
>
I hope David will chime up on this himself, but I seem to remember him
writing that for Dothraki, he sends to the actors both mp3s of the Dothraki
texts, but also the written texts in the Dothraki transliteration and in
IPA, and that most actors have at least a passable knowledge of it. They
seem to learn IPA during some acting classes, especially the ones focussed
on pronunciation, speaking with specific accents, etc.
That seems not unlike classical singers, who also have a good knowledge of
IPA, which they use to learn to sing in languages they don't speak and
cannot read in their normal orthography.
So it seems that actors *do* have some interest in learning IPA, although
maybe not to the point that they can all produce the more "exotic" sounds
like pharyngeals or non-pulmonic consonants.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.2. Re: R2D2 language
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 8:00 pm ((PDT))
It also comes with a legal notice that's longer than the grammar
description itself. Never a good sign.
There are some interesting bits in the grammar that could be worked on.
Varying degrees of article (she has an indefinite/definite split, but also
an ordinary/emphatic split) could come in handy. Adding n' to an adjective
makes it a noun, apparently -- not sure how that fits in!
The most entertaining parts were all the vague threats of legal action on
Lucasfilm's part presumably, if you so much as utter a single Mandoa word!
Padraic
--- On Mon, 4/2/12, Armin Buch <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Armin Buch <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] R2D2 language
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, April 2, 2012, 10:37 AM
> Am Montag, den 02.04.2012, 10:54
> +0200 schrieb taliesin the storyteller:
> > Conlang: Mando'a http://www.karentraviss.com/page20/page26/index.html
>
> A great example of "I created a language!!!". It comes with
> an
> "alphabet" (A-Z), a "grammar" (which is basically a code for
> English),
> and a lexicon (I didn't bother to look at it).
>
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.3. Re: R2D2 language
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 8:14 pm ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 4/2/12, Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Yes, there are a great many things about this conlang
> that are naive,
> >and just plain wrong, but for the average reader it's
> probably
> >perfectly adequate for the job. As much as we would like
> to see every
> >conlang be a work of art, some are just minimally
> utilitarian. And
> >that's probably O.K.
> >
>
> I'm rather glad to hear you say that. I'm no great
> conlanger, but as I went
> over this one I thought, "This is not on a par with the
> conlangs I've seen on
> the conlang list." Good to know that I'm not TOO
> uneducated!
Indeed! I've seen folks come through here saying basically "I started
conlanging last Thursday and here's what I've got so far..." that have been
better than this -- BUT, let's not forget the purpose of this conlang.
It's not intended to be a work of art or some great labour of love which
can unlock the deepest secrets of the soul. It is a product. She made it
for Lucasfilm who in turn used it in some production of theirs. This is
one of those conlangs that was created for the express purpose of being
nothing more than background material to some story. It's exactly the sort
of thing get when you use the Holly Lisle method of language creation: a
bit of decoration for a work of fiction. Nothing wrong with that at all;
we just have to understand the underlying philosophy.
And don't sell yourself short! This Mando'a has nothing on your Senjecas!
Padraic
> Charlie
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.4. Re: R2D2 language
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 9:38 pm ((PDT))
On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:14 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Mon, 4/2/12, Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Yes, there are a great many things about this conlang
>> that are naive,
>>> and just plain wrong, but for the average reader it's
>> probably
>>> perfectly adequate for the job. As much as we would like
>> to see every
>>> conlang be a work of art, some are just minimally
>> utilitarian. And
>>> that's probably O.K.
>>>
>>
>> I'm rather glad to hear you say that. I'm no great
>> conlanger, but as I went
>> over this one I thought, "This is not on a par with the
>> conlangs I've seen on
>> the conlang list." Good to know that I'm not TOO
>> uneducated!
>
> Indeed! I've seen folks come through here saying basically "I started
> conlanging last Thursday and here's what I've got so far..." that have been
> better than this -- BUT, let's not forget the purpose of this conlang.
>
> It's not intended to be a work of art or some great labour of love which
> can unlock the deepest secrets of the soul. It is a product. She made it
> for Lucasfilm who in turn used it in some production of theirs. This is
> one of those conlangs that was created for the express purpose of being
> nothing more than background material to some story. It's exactly the sort
> of thing get when you use the Holly Lisle method of language creation: a
> bit of decoration for a work of fiction. Nothing wrong with that at all;
> we just have to understand the underlying philosophy.
>
> And don't sell yourself short! This Mando'a has nothing on your Senjecas!
>
> Padraic
>
>> Charlie
I don't think it's that bad. There seem to be a lot of words, and a lot of
clusters of words that are related in both form and meaning; although I haven't
investigated enough to see how systematic the clusters of related words are.
And there are a few grammatical things that aren't like English (like tense
being optional). So I think probably a lot of work went into it, at the very
least.
I don't mean to be harsh to the list, but I wouldn't expect Karen and her
friends to go on and on about how unprofessional and shallow Conlang members'
fiction writing is (especially of the amateurs among us). Nor would I expect
Conlang members to be quite as critical of other members' beginning conlangs as
they are of Mando'a. Constructively critical, yes, but not so dismissive.
Messages in this topic (30)
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3.5. Re: R2D2 language
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 10:48 pm ((PDT))
I just now actually looked at it, I was mostly talking at other people
here. The dictionary is not bad, but there is no "grammar" to speak of,
and what is given looks very naiive (using tense only with species who care
about it -- that's a bit ridiculous). Yes, it's a bit of flavor for a
world and not intended to go very deep, but I think it's perfectly OK for
us not to like half-ass attempts like this. As far as criticizing our
writing, I'll admit that I have only a few half-finished novels, but
comparing Mando'a to a well-developed conlang like we see on this list is
like comparing a first grader's first composition to a well-written novel.
It's cute, but not really terribly good or interesting when it's all said
and done.
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:38 AM, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:14 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:
>
> > --- On Mon, 4/2/12, Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>> Yes, there are a great many things about this conlang
> >> that are naive,
> >>> and just plain wrong, but for the average reader it's
> >> probably
> >>> perfectly adequate for the job. As much as we would like
> >> to see every
> >>> conlang be a work of art, some are just minimally
> >> utilitarian. And
> >>> that's probably O.K.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'm rather glad to hear you say that. I'm no great
> >> conlanger, but as I went
> >> over this one I thought, "This is not on a par with the
> >> conlangs I've seen on
> >> the conlang list." Good to know that I'm not TOO
> >> uneducated!
> >
> > Indeed! I've seen folks come through here saying basically "I started
> > conlanging last Thursday and here's what I've got so far..." that have
> been
> > better than this -- BUT, let's not forget the purpose of this conlang.
> >
> > It's not intended to be a work of art or some great labour of love which
> > can unlock the deepest secrets of the soul. It is a product. She made it
> > for Lucasfilm who in turn used it in some production of theirs. This is
> > one of those conlangs that was created for the express purpose of being
> > nothing more than background material to some story. It's exactly the
> sort
> > of thing get when you use the Holly Lisle method of language creation: a
> > bit of decoration for a work of fiction. Nothing wrong with that at all;
> > we just have to understand the underlying philosophy.
> >
> > And don't sell yourself short! This Mando'a has nothing on your Senjecas!
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> >> Charlie
>
> I don't think it's that bad. There seem to be a lot of words, and a lot of
> clusters of words that are related in both form and meaning; although I
> haven't investigated enough to see how systematic the clusters of related
> words are. And there are a few grammatical things that aren't like English
> (like tense being optional). So I think probably a lot of work went into
> it, at the very least.
>
> I don't mean to be harsh to the list, but I wouldn't expect Karen and her
> friends to go on and on about how unprofessional and shallow Conlang
> members' fiction writing is (especially of the amateurs among us). Nor
> would I expect Conlang members to be quite as critical of other members'
> beginning conlangs as they are of Mando'a. Constructively critical, yes,
> but not so dismissive.
>
Messages in this topic (30)
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4a. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 6:14 pm ((PDT))
There a lot of fanboys that _do_ learn well-developed conlangs, and actors
never have to learn the language -- just how to pronounce their lines.
Also, Mandalorian was never in the movies.
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]>wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 09:12:09 -0700 Gary Shannon wrote:
>
> > Yes, there are a great many things about this conlang that are naive,
> > and just plain wrong, but for the average reader it's probably
> > perfectly adequate for the job. As much as we would like to see every
> > conlang be a work of art, some are just minimally utilitarian. And
> > that's probably O.K.
>
> Sure. Mandalorian may not be a piece of refined conlang artistry
> as we practice it here on CONLANG, but it serves a purpose, namely
> to give some flavour to movie dialogue in an easy-to-do way.
> Learning a highly developed artlang such as Sindarin takes as much
> time as learning a natlang; that is not what actors and fanboys
> want to do. I remember a similar discussion about a language
> designed for a role-playing game that was similarly unsophisticated.
> It may not appeal to the taste of experienced artlangers; but it
> does do the job it is made for.
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bęsel asa Ęm, a Ęm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Ęmel." - SiM 1:1
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 7:05 pm ((PDT))
>
> Sure. Mandalorian may not be a piece of refined conlang artistry
> as we practice it here on CONLANG, but it serves a purpose, namely
> to give some flavour to movie dialogue in an easy-to-do way....it
> does do the job it is made for.
>
>
>
Also we have to keep in mind that the idea of inventing a language,
particularly a completely *different* language from your L1, may not occur
to some people. Or, it might occur to them but seem like too big of a
challenge for what they are trying to accomplish. While it seems simple
for us here on CONLANG to invent a language (in fact, most of us could
probably make up a sketch of a decent conlang in a few hours), I think that
most people not initiated in the craft would find it daunting.
Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 7:21 pm ((PDT))
You can make a phonology and some basic notes in a few hours. It takes a
bit more to develop enough to write dialogue.
It's perfectly fine that some authors don't do conlangs for their books.
In fact, I think if you aren't interested in making a full conlang, or
contracting someone to make it, then don't do anything more than a few
token words. It's trivial to write in such a way as to make clear that a
translation convention is being used.
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>wrote:
> >
> > Sure. Mandalorian may not be a piece of refined conlang artistry
> > as we practice it here on CONLANG, but it serves a purpose, namely
> > to give some flavour to movie dialogue in an easy-to-do way....it
> > does do the job it is made for.
> >
> >
> >
> Also we have to keep in mind that the idea of inventing a language,
> particularly a completely *different* language from your L1, may not occur
> to some people. Or, it might occur to them but seem like too big of a
> challenge for what they are trying to accomplish. While it seems simple
> for us here on CONLANG to invent a language (in fact, most of us could
> probably make up a sketch of a decent conlang in a few hours), I think that
> most people not initiated in the craft would find it daunting.
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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4d. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 12:31 am ((PDT))
George Corley wrote:
> There a lot of fanboys that _do_ learn well-developed conlangs, [...]
Actually, I once read a sociology paper on the subject of Klingon
speakers, and it turns out that Star Trek fans and Klingon speakers are
more or less two distinct groups. Among the fans it is perceived to be
cool to be able to utter a few words and phrases of Klingon, but to
actually be able to speak the language is considered a bit strange and
overly geeky. The author compared it to making a pair of extremely
detailed gloves for your Klingon suit, even though your mask looks a bit
rough.
Those who actually learn to speak the language are usually more interested
in language in general than in Star Trek.
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (6)
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4e. Re: Mandalorian (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 12:44 am ((PDT))
@Fredrik: Interesting. I imagined that Klingon speakers would be a very
small subset of Star Trek fans, but the fact those people are more
interested in the language than the series is something I hadn't thought
about. Of course, anecdotally, I know that while William Annis wrote the
fan reference grammar for Na'vi, he's not really a big fan of *Avatar*.
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Fredrik Ekman <[email protected]> wrote:
> George Corley wrote:
>
> > There a lot of fanboys that _do_ learn well-developed conlangs, [...]
>
> Actually, I once read a sociology paper on the subject of Klingon
> speakers, and it turns out that Star Trek fans and Klingon speakers are
> more or less two distinct groups. Among the fans it is perceived to be
> cool to be able to utter a few words and phrases of Klingon, but to
> actually be able to speak the language is considered a bit strange and
> overly geeky. The author compared it to making a pair of extremely
> detailed gloves for your Klingon suit, even though your mask looks a bit
> rough.
>
> Those who actually learn to speak the language are usually more interested
> in language in general than in Star Trek.
>
> Fredrik
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: Sefdaanian calendar
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 7:20 pm ((PDT))
On 4/2/2012 4:14 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> I've recently worked on a base-19 date and time system. I used 19 because
> the number of days in a year is just slightly more than 19^2 or 361. Of
> course, I have 4 or 5 extra days at the end of the year that aren't part of
> the preceding 'months'. 19 also has the feature of being a prime number, so
> there are few easy non-repeating decimals, and those are all multiples of
> powers of 19. The symbols I used for the digits were originally the letters
> a..s, but I've converted to 0..9A..I, an extension of hexadecimal, really.
>
> I haven't been able to determine when the year will actually be 361 days
> long, although long, long ago (400,000,000 years ago) the year was 410 days
> long, so I expect a 361-day year sometime in the distant future.
>
> I also found out that the Baha'i have a similar, although more complicated,
> 19-month calendar.
Do you know about the 19-year Metonic cycle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle
I found out about it when looking for information on a lunisolar
calendar for some language or other (I think it might have been
Lindiga). The pattern of intercalary months happens to be the same as
the diatonic scale in 19-note equal temperament. So you can name each
year after a musical note. That pattern isn't much use if you've got 19
months in the year instead of 12 or 13, but you might find something
similar.
Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Sefdaanian calendar
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 7:24 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Herman Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/2/2012 4:14 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>
>> I've recently worked on a base-19 date and time system. I used 19 because
>> the number of days in a year is just slightly more than 19^2 or 361. Of
>> course, I have 4 or 5 extra days at the end of the year that aren't part
>> of
>> the preceding 'months'. 19 also has the feature of being a prime number,
>> so
>> there are few easy non-repeating decimals, and those are all multiples of
>> powers of 19. The symbols I used for the digits were originally the
>> letters
>> a..s, but I've converted to 0..9A..I, an extension of hexadecimal, really.
>>
>> I haven't been able to determine when the year will actually be 361 days
>> long, although long, long ago (400,000,000 years ago) the year was 410
>> days
>> long, so I expect a 361-day year sometime in the distant future.
>>
>> I also found out that the Baha'i have a similar, although more
>> complicated,
>> 19-month calendar.
>>
>
> Do you know about the 19-year Metonic cycle?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Metonic_cycle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonic_cycle>
I noticed it in passing, but forgot to look into it further. Thanks for the
reminder.
stevo
>
>
> I found out about it when looking for information on a lunisolar calendar
> for some language or other (I think it might have been Lindiga). The
> pattern of intercalary months happens to be the same as the diatonic scale
> in 19-note equal temperament. So you can name each year after a musical
> note. That pattern isn't much use if you've got 19 months in the year
> instead of 12 or 13, but you might find something similar.
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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6.1. Re: Conlangs in movies (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 2, 2012 7:27 pm ((PDT))
In the book there are notes on the language, IIRC. No grammar or phonology
to speak of, though.
stevo
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Fredrik Ekman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Adam Walker wrote:
>
> > The novella Enemy Mine by Longyear was published in 1979 and later
> > made into a movie with Louis Gosset Jr in both of which the conlang
> > Drac features prominently. I am not sure of the film s date, but I
> > believe it antedates Klingon. Adam
>
> I once made a half-hearted attempt to analyze the Drac language in the
> movie and came to the conclusion that the Drac dialogue split into two
> distinctive categories. On the one hand lines that were quoted straight
> from the novella; on the other hand lines that were utter nonsense. My
> conclusion is that Drac does not qualify as a movie conlang.
>
> Fredrik
>
Messages in this topic (30)
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7a. (no subject)
Posted by: "Karil Padur" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 12:57 am ((PDT))
<a href="http://boogaloogames.net/andrew/wp-content/imgcache/02efpk.html";>
http://boogaloogames.net/andrew/wp-content/imgcache/02efpk.html</a>
Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. (no subject)
Posted by: "yuri" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 1:36 am ((PDT))
List admin. Please block Karil Padur <[email protected]> - this is pure spam.
On 3 April 2012 19:57, Karil Padur <[email protected]> wrote:
> <a href="http://boogaloogames.net/andrew/wp-content/imgcache/02efpk.html";>
> http://boogaloogames.net/andrew/wp-content/imgcache/02efpk.html</a>
Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Drac language (was: Conlangs in movies)
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 1:06 am ((PDT))
> I once made a half-hearted attempt to analyze the Drac language in the
movie
Do you also analyze the written Drac text in the movie? (I have the movie
recorded and wanted to do screenshots of the Talman pages, but
possiblemaybeperhaps it was allready done by someone else.)
Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Drac language (was: Conlangs in movies)
Posted by: "Fredrik Ekman" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2012 8:37 am ((PDT))
A. da Mek wrote:
> Do you also analyze the written Drac text in the movie?
Nope. As I said, it was rather half-hearted. As soon as I discovered that
there was apparently no connection between Longyear's language and the
original phrases in the movie, I gave up pretty quickly.
(Of course, "no connection" is a bit strong. Obviously, someone had made
the attempt to construct utterances that at least sounded similar to
Longyear's Drac. "No grammatical or semantic connection" would be more to
the point.)
Fredrik
Messages in this topic (2)
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