There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
From: MorphemeAddict
1b. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
From: Gary Shannon
2a. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Padraic Brown
2b. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Padraic Brown
3. Circular Gallifreyan
From: Eric Christopherson
4a. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
From: Christian Thalmann
4b. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
From: Michael Everson
4c. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
From: MorphemeAddict
4d. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
From: Michael Everson
5a. TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Alex Fink
5b. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Alex Fink
Messages
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1a. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 10:15 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> A very nifty set of transforms! The result bears no resemblance to English.
>
> You could write the whole thing up as a computer program and
> "translate" the complete works of Shakespeare in a single afternoon!
> If you ran the text through a POS tagger first then you could even
> have a different set of rules for nouns, verbs, adjs, etc., so that
> "work" the verb would translate to something different than both
> "work" the noun and "work" the adjective.
>
This is what I do with my L&S (lexicalization & disambiguation) work. I
split the synonyms up (in the D part) into similar, but still distinct
words. My favorite example is splitting "there" into "there" (locative
adverb) and "therr" (existence particle). Most people don't even know they
are different words.
Another example is "too" > "too" (also) vs. "tooo" (excessive). Or "do" as
a main verb vs. "do" (> du) as an auxiliary verb. "One" has several
meanings (and therefore several spellings in L&D).
stevo
>
> I've always thought it would be fun to have a "real" conlang (not just
> a relex) that could be translated by computer. How fun would it be to
> have available any book you wanted translated into your conlang?
>
> --gary
>
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:19 AM, Christian Thalmann <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 22:58:16 -0700, Gary Shannon <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >>On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 10:03 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >>>> It seems like you substituted sounds (a>o, l>r, etc.). Is there a
> distinct
> >>> word for this kind of relex? I understand relex to be a word-for-word
> >>> substitution, rather than sound-for-sound (or letter-for-letter).
> >
> >>I don't know. I guess you could consider it a cipher. On the other
> >>hand I just did it quickly and off the top of my head so I'm sure
> >>there are errors in my "translation". If I were going to do it for a
> >>novel I'd spend at least a couple hours drawing up a complete chart of
> >>"cipher" substitutions.
> >
> > I did something like that for a play-by-post roleplaying game recently,
> > based on a substitution scheme I had proposed many years back on
> > conlang@yahoogroups. My character was cursed to speak only Terran when
> in
> > combat or under other duress, and I found it a rather fun and easy way to
> > produce language-like text (with a distinctly "earthy" feel, too). The
> > description is given below.
> >
> > As a name for such phoneme-level subsititution schemes, I propose
> "Ondrus",
> > which is what becomes of "English" in my scheme.
> >
> >
> > 1. Preparation:
> > If a word starts with a vowel, stick an h before it. If it starts with
> an h,
> > remove it. If a single vowel stands for the "long" pronunciation (as the
> i
> > in "hide"), put a circumflex accent on it and remove the now obsolete
> mute
> > e: "hide" > Ä«d. Do the same for the digraphs "oo" and "ee", i.e.,
> "steel" >
> > stźl. Invert the order of the digraphs "oa" and "ea", so "roast" > raost.
> >
> > 2. Substitution:
> > Every letter (or sound made by a group of letters) is replaced by a
> > similar-sounding letter. This ensures that the word stays pronounceable.
> >
> > Stops, nasals, and fricatives just rotate their place of articulation by
> one
> > step: labial > dental > velar > labial, so:
> >
> > p > t > k > p
> > b > d > g > b
> > f > th > kh > f
> > v > dh > gh > v
> > m > n > ng > m
> >
> > Sibilants stay among each others, as to rhotics/liquids:
> > s > sh > s
> > z > zh > z (zh being the s in "measure")
> > ch > j > ch
> > r > l > r
> >
> > And finally, vowels and semivowels just flip along the front/back
> dimension:
> >
> > i > u > i
> > e > o > e
> > y > w > y (treat a y as an i when it acts like a vowel)
> > a is the only constant letter.
> >
> > 3. The ubiquitous English ending -s, which translates into -sh, can cause
> > some rather ugly consonant clusters. In those cases, one can fill in a
> vowel
> > before the ending to smooth things out a bit. Use a copy of the last
> vowel
> > in the word, e.g. "births" > dulkhsh > dulkhush. The same trick can be
> > applied to other unwieldy consonant clusters, for example "protect" >
> > tlekopk > tlekopok.
> >
> > Here's a sample "translation":
> >
> > I'm selling these fine leather jackets.
> > HÅ«'n shorrum ghÅzh thÅ«ng raokhol chappokosh.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Christian Thalmann
>
Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 12:03 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> A very nifty set of transforms! The result bears no resemblance to English.
>>
>> You could write the whole thing up as a computer program and
>> "translate" the complete works of Shakespeare in a single afternoon!
>> If you ran the text through a POS tagger first then you could even
>> have a different set of rules for nouns, verbs, adjs, etc., so that
>> "work" the verb would translate to something different than both
>> "work" the noun and "work" the adjective.
>>
>
> This is what I do with my L&S (lexicalization & disambiguation) work. I
> split the synonyms up (in the D part) into similar, but still distinct
> words. My favorite example is splitting "there" into "there" (locative
> adverb) and "therr" (existence particle). Most people don't even know they
> are different words.
> Another example is "too" > "too" (also) vs. "tooo" (excessive). Or "do" as
> a main verb vs. "do" (> du) as an auxiliary verb. "One" has several
> meanings (and therefore several spellings in L&D).
>
> stevo
I'm not able to lay my hands on the file just now (I have WAAAY too
many conlang files floating around on several hard drives and two
separate computers) but one of my conlangs had something like 8 or 10
different translations for the single English word "that".
--gary
Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 2:41 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 4/8/12, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> When a sentence has both a noun and a
> subject, the adverb that agrees with
> the noun can agree with either. These have different shades
> of meaning. For example:
>
> "The dog runs quickly to the park" can be:
>
> Pastê toçu zaanê woekit.
> quickly.NOM dog.NOM park.ACC run.3sg.PRS
>
> or
>
> Toçu pastes zaanê woekit.
> dog.NOM quickly.ACC park.ACC run.3sg.PRS
>
> In the first sentence, it is more important that the *dog*
> is running
> quickly, while in the second sentence, it is more important
> that the dog is
> running to the park quickly, i.e., the dog might be running
> somewhere else, but not quickly.
I like that. You're doing with case endings on the adverb what English
does with position of the adverb:
Quickly the dog runs to the park. = emphasis on speed
The dog runs quickly to the park. = emphasis on nature of running
The dog runs to the park quickly. = wholistic emphasis on action
All slightly different emphases.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (19)
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2b. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 2:45 pm ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 4/9/12, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> We have that kind of thing in English, in fact: Sensory
> state verbs take
> adjectives rather than adverbs: 'feel sick', 'taste weird'.
> I'm not sure
> whether 'shine bright' comes about because of the stative
> verb or whether
> it's a historical accident of OE _beorhte_ having lost its
> adverbial ending.
> In any case, such a system can be further fine-tuned and
> complicated in a conlang, of course.
Or it could just be the old IE neuter acc adjective = adverb thing.
I run fast.
I walk slow.
She eats sloppy.
None of those are any more adverbial than sick, bright or weird. All of
them are adjectives used adverbially. Very common in English, much to the
chagrin of the prescriptivists.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (19)
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3. Circular Gallifreyan
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 6:44 pm ((PDT))
A friend showed me this:
http://timeturners.wikidot.com/circular-gallifreyan
Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
Posted by: "Christian Thalmann" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 11:24 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 21:34:22 +0100, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
>http://www.evertype.com/books/dejong-worterbuch.html
The title is ungrammatical; it should be "für Deutschsprechende". Was that
in the original already?
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:07 am ((PDT))
On 10 Apr 2012, at 07:24, Christian Thalmann wrote:
>> http://www.evertype.com/books/dejong-worterbuch.html
>
> The title is ungrammatical; it should be "für Deutschsprechende". Was that in
> the original already?
No, it was my mistake. But the mistake is being corrected now (I have uploaded
new files to the printer), and any order placed henceforth will have the
correct grammar.
Perhaps that will make the six existing copies very rare and valuable ;-)
Thank you for the correction. The error was entirely mine.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:09 am ((PDT))
2012/4/10 Michael Everson <[email protected]>
> On 10 Apr 2012, at 07:24, Christian Thalmann wrote:
>
> >> http://www.evertype.com/books/dejong-worterbuch.html
> >
> > The title is ungrammatical; it should be "für Deutschsprechende". Was
> that in the original already?
>
> No, it was my mistake. But the mistake is being corrected now (I have
> uploaded new files to the printer), and any order placed henceforth will
> have the correct grammar.
>
> Perhaps that will make the six existing copies very rare and valuable ;-)
>
> How about a discount for these few copies, since they are defective? :-)
stevo
> Thank you for the correction. The error was entirely mine.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:08 am ((PDT))
On 10 Apr 2012, at 14:08, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> Perhaps that will make the six existing copies very rare and valuable ;-)
>
How about a discount for these few copies, since they are defective? :-)
I only have one such copy. You may make me an offer if you like. ;-)
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:01 am ((PDT))
Looking at the Brown archive recently I was greeted by an unfamiliar
interface, and a header that suggests that it is LISTSERV 16.0 running
now. Wasn't it version 14 or 15 point something before?
I wonder if this means some of the problems with Unicode &c that have
plagued us before will be resolved now. ¡ÄÆÉÊ°ÌÎÐÔÔ±×Ø¡
Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:05 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:01:27 -0400, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>I wonder if this means some of the problems with Unicode &c that have
>plagued us before will be resolved now. ¡ÄÆÉÊ°ÌÎÐÔÔ±×Ø¡
Hey, that worked for me. Now let's see what happens when I try to post those
characters through Brown's interface...
Messages in this topic (2)
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