There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Carsten Becker
1b. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Padraic Brown
1c. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Roman Rausch
1d. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Alex Fink
1e. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: Garth Wallace
1f. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
From: MorphemeAddict
2a. Context-sensitive conlangs
From: Armin Buch
2b. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
2c. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
3a. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
From: MorphemeAddict
4.1. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Elliott Lash
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:48 am ((PDT))
It seems the default for the web interface is now UTF-8 when it used to be
ISO-8859-1. You can even set it in the editing thing for messages ("Show
Advanced"). So, using the web interface, the following should get through
correctly, …
Анг торвай, анг торвай, натраён Хираян? Хару данглей, хару данглей! Динг динг
данг, динг динг данг.
Ἀγγ τορϋαι, ἀγγ τορϋαι, νατραϊον Ἱραϊαν? Ἀρυ δαγγλει, ἁρυ δαγγλει! Διγγ διγγ
δαγγ, διγγ διγγ, δαγγ.
अं तोर्वइ, अं तोर्वइ, नत्रयोन् हिरयन्? हरु दंलेइ, हरु दंलेइ! दिं दिं दं, दिं
दिं दं।
CB
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:13 am ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 4/10/12, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I wonder if this means some of the problems with Unicode
> &c that have
> >plagued us before will be resolved now.
> ¡Āƀɐʰ̀ΑЀԀԱאء
>
> Hey, that worked for me. Now let's see what happens
> when I try to post those characters through Brown's
> interface...
Came out gibberish for me... so if gibberish is what you intended, then I
guess it worked for me too!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 am ((PDT))
> ¡Āƀɐʰ̀ΑЀԀԱאء
If you intended to write an inverted exclamation mark, an A with a macron, a b
with a stroke, an inverted a; and so on with an aleph at the end, then it was a
success.
>It seems the default for the web interface is now UTF-8 when it used to be
>ISO-8859-1. You can even set it in the editing thing for messages ("Show
>Advanced").
>So, using the web interface, the following should get through correctly,
If I'm not mistaken, you could set UTF-8 via the "advanced" menu in the old
version as well, but for some reason, it came out as ISO anyway.
Lemme try the IPA vowels via the interface:
iyɨʉɯuɪʏʊeøɘɵɤoəɛœɜɞʌɔæɐaɶɑɒ
And some kanji/kana:
天気が良いから散歩しましょう
If it's a success, it means that not only will I be able to procrastinate at
work by reading the mailing list and writing to it, but I'll be able to do so
whilst enjoying the IPA! :-)
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:08 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:31:42 -0400, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ¡Āƀɐʰ̀ΑЀԀԱאء
>
>If you intended to write an inverted exclamation mark, an A with a macron, a b
>with a stroke, an inverted a; and so on with an aleph at the end, then it was
>a success.
Yeah, I did. Wasn't a very clever test. I just went through and picked (one
of) the first printable character(s) from the first several Unicode blocks. I
suppose I should have picked an A-with-diacritic / letter cognate to A from
each block, or something, for recognizability.
>Lemme try the IPA vowels via the interface:
>iyɨʉɯuɪʏʊeøɘɵɤoəɛœɜɞʌɔæɐaɶɑɒ
>And some kanji/kana:
>天気が良いから散歩しましょう
>If it's a success, it means that not only will I be able to procrastinate at
>work by reading the mailing list and writing to it, but I'll be able to do so
>whilst enjoying the IPA! :-)
Looks good over here!
Alex
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:12 am ((PDT))
On 4/10/12, Carsten Becker <[email protected]> wrote:
> It seems the default for the web interface is now UTF-8 when it used to be
> ISO-8859-1. You can even set it in the editing thing for messages ("Show
> Advanced"). So, using the web interface, the following should get through
> correctly, …
>
> Анг торвай, анг торвай, натраён Хираян? Хару данглей, хару данглей! Динг
> динг данг, динг динг данг.
> Ἀγγ τορϋαι, ἀγγ τορϋαι, νατραϊον Ἱραϊαν? Ἀρυ δαγγλει, ἁρυ δαγγλει! Διγγ διγγ
> δαγγ, διγγ διγγ, δαγγ.
> अं तोर्वइ, अं तोर्वइ, नत्रयोन् हिरयन्? हरु दंलेइ, हरु दंलेइ! दिं दिं दं, दिं
> दिं दं।
That worked.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: TECH: has the list software been updated?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:57 pm ((PDT))
I got Cyrillic, Greek, and Devanagari. I don't recognize the language or
text they all three represent, but it looks/sounds like Mongolian.
stevo
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Carsten Becker <[email protected]>wrote:
> It seems the default for the web interface is now UTF-8 when it used to be
> ISO-8859-1. You can even set it in the editing thing for messages ("Show
> Advanced"). So, using the web interface, the following should get through
> correctly, …
>
> Анг торвай, анг торвай, натраён Хираян? Хару данглей, хару данглей! Динг
> динг данг, динг динг данг.
> Ἀγγ τορϋαι, ἀγγ τορϋαι, νατραϊον Ἱραϊαν? Ἀρυ δαγγλει, ἁρυ δαγγλει! Διγγ
> διγγ δαγγ, διγγ διγγ, δαγγ.
> अं तोर्वइ, अं तोर्वइ, नत्रयोन् हिरयन्? हरु दंलेइ, हरु दंलेइ! दिं दिं दं,
> दिं दिं दं।
>
> CB
>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "Armin Buch" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:14 pm ((PDT))
Hello Conlangers,
this is going to be very linguistic and mostly uninteresting - unless
you want to know how to make your conlang even more different from natlangs.
I was just asked an interesting question: Are there any
context-sensitive conlangs?
I'm not talking about the colloquial sense of "context" here. You can
sort (formal) grammars by complexity; see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_Hierarchy. Natlangs are generally
context-_free_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar), with
very few known constructions that are not (study example 5 in Shieber's
famous article:
http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~shieber/Biblio/Papers/shieber85.pdf).
Basically, if you draw a syntactic tree
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse_tree), branches do not cross in
natlangs.
Are there conlangs with such "cross-serial dependencies"?
Another simple example for context-sensitivity / crossing branches is
_full reduplication_ (as in "ugga ugga"). Just connect all the phoneme
pairs: the connections cross. I'd be surprised if full reduplications
was not a feature of at least some conlang. But identical copies are not
as interesting as the crossing syntactic dependencies mentioned above.
Sorry for the technicality. If you survived up to here, you can skip
your introductory syntax class.
Armin
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:52 pm ((PDT))
I study Computational Linguistics. As soon as I end my master program,
the MSc degree I will be awarded will be in Systems and Computer
Engineering, with emphasis in Artificial Intelligence... but my main
emphasis is indeed Computational Linguistics.
Anyway, if you like this kind of technicality, try creating conlangs
that would lie in a class beyond the mildly-context-sensitive
languages. Maybe "indexed languages"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indexed_language), or even Castaños
Global Index Languages, which I think is an interesting class
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_index_grammar). It does not
include all context-free languages, but includes languages that lie
beyond mildly-context-sensitive class, and is parseable in polynomial
time (O(n^6)), just as any mildly-context-sensitive language.
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Armin Buch <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello Conlangers,
>
> this is going to be very linguistic and mostly uninteresting - unless you
> want to know how to make your conlang even more different from natlangs.
>
> I was just asked an interesting question: Are there any context-sensitive
> conlangs?
>
> I'm not talking about the colloquial sense of "context" here. You can sort
> (formal) grammars by complexity; see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_Hierarchy. Natlangs are generally
> context-_free_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar), with
> very few known constructions that are not (study example 5 in Shieber's
> famous article:
> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~shieber/Biblio/Papers/shieber85.pdf).
> Basically, if you draw a syntactic tree
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse_tree), branches do not cross in
> natlangs.
>
> Are there conlangs with such "cross-serial dependencies"?
>
> Another simple example for context-sensitivity / crossing branches is _full
> reduplication_ (as in "ugga ugga"). Just connect all the phoneme pairs: the
> connections cross. I'd be surprised if full reduplications was not a feature
> of at least some conlang. But identical copies are not as interesting as the
> crossing syntactic dependencies mentioned above.
>
> Sorry for the technicality. If you survived up to here, you can skip your
> introductory syntax class.
>
> Armin
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:39 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 09:14:22PM +0200, Armin Buch wrote:
> I was just asked an interesting question: Are there any
> context-sensitive conlangs?
Lojban is known to be context-sensitive, in that its mechanism for expressing
non-Lojban quotations requires the grammar to match up identical strings on
both sides of the quotation. A schematic syntax rule is as follows:
Quotation → zoi QUOTE-WORD QUOTATION QUOTE-WORD
where QUOTE-WORD is a single token that can be anything, but both must be the
same, and it must not be included in QUOTATION.
Further, it is believed that Lojban's elidable terminators cannot be described
by a context-free grammar, see:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?comments_parentId=7408
(An “elidable terminator”, in Lojban jargon, is a kind of clause-final particle
that can be omitted if it would cause no syntactic ambiguity, but is otherwise
obligatory.)
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:15 pm ((PDT))
2012/4/10 Michael Everson <[email protected]>
> On 10 Apr 2012, at 14:08, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>
> > Perhaps that will make the six existing copies very rare and valuable ;-)
> >
> How about a discount for these few copies, since they are defective? :-)
>
> I only have one such copy. You may make me an offer if you like. ;-)
>
> Better would be an auction. I offer $25 (US).
stevo
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Elliott Lash" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:51 pm ((PDT))
The people listed in the presentation handout are well-known to me and very
good researchers at a very well known and respectable university in England. It
is unfortunate that they didn't looked into that language more thoroughly. I
can vouch that their papers are generally very interesting and full of
important insights about natlangs.
Elliott
________________________________
From: Wm Annis <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Daniel Bowman
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Is this an article intended for (or already put through) peer review, or
> is it a class assignment/report?
Neither. It looks like a handout for a presentation — a common early
step on the way to a full paper.
--
wm
Messages in this topic (39)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
