There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Babel Text Blues - 'one speech' and 'common languages'
From: Padraic Brown
1b. Re: Babel Text Blues - 'one speech' and 'common languages'
From: Adam Walker
2a. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
From: Logan Kearsley
2b. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
From: taliesin the storyteller
2c. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2d. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
From: Tristan
2e. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
From: Logan Kearsley
2f. Fith Texts
From: Miles Forster
2g. Re: Fith Texts
From: MorphemeAddict
2h. Re: Fith Texts
From: Adam Walker
2i. Re: Fith Texts
From: Miles Forster
3. Happy Ides of April!
From: R A Brown
Messages
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1a. Re: Babel Text Blues - 'one speech' and 'common languages'
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:49 am ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 4/12/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I **still** haven't done this text for Carrajina.
Well???......
When are we going to see it then?
> Adam
Padraic
>
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Anthony Miles <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > Gen.
> > 11:1
> > Samni menekem lukaya siye tum am yenakike ehenipuma.
> > samni mene-kem luka-ya siye tum-0 am yenaki-ke-0
> e-e-ni-pu-m-a
> > time past-LOC place-all-ERG talk one-ABS and
> word-PAUC-0
> > 3IN-3IN-possess.IPFV-SG-IPFV-POS.IND
> > 11:2 Um lupomisum isulomamena lu Sinanekem luponu
> eyuluwepuna am lumekem
> > umhikimlosumma.
> > Um-NOM lupomi-sum i-su-lo-m-a-me-na lu Sina-ne-kem
> luponu-0
> > e-i-uluwe-pu-n-a am lume-kem
> > man-NOM east-ABL 3AN-move.IPFV-PL-IPFV-POS.IND-REL-ERG
> place
> > Shinar-GEN-LOC plain-ABS 3IN-3AN-find-SG-PFV-POS.IND
> > um-i-kim-lo-sum-m-a
> > REFL-3AN-be.at-PL-CAUS-IPFV-POS.IND
> > 0 - zero morpheme
> > 3 - third person
> > ABL - ablative case
> > ABS - absolutive case
> > AN - animate
> > CAUS - causative
> > ERG - ergative case
> > GEN - genitive case
> > IN - inanimate
> > IND - indicative mood
> > IPFV - imperfective mood
> > LOC - locative case
> > NOM - nominative case
> > PAUC - Paucal number
> > PFV - perfective mood
> > PL - plural number
> > POS - positive polarity
> > REFL - reflexive
> > REL - relative marker
> > SG - singular number
> > More later!
> >
>
Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Babel Text Blues - 'one speech' and 'common languages'
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:02 am ((PDT))
I've done a good bit of Bible translating as I've worked on C-a. I have
several of the Psalms, the first 4 or 5 chapters of Matthew, quite a number
of scattered verses from the weekly Torah readings (roughly done on the
fly) and even a few from the Revelation, about half of III John and now I'm
about 20 verses into the Gospel of John (for which I am writing out each
verse in 15 versions before producing the transaltion), but I've never
gotten around to this most iconic of conalg texts.
Adam
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Thu, 4/12/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I **still** haven't done this text for Carrajina.
>
> Well???......
>
> When are we going to see it then?
>
> > Adam
>
> Padraic
>
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Anthony Miles <[email protected]
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Gen.
> > > 11:1
> > > Samni menekem lukaya siye tum am yenakike ehenipuma.
> > > samni mene-kem luka-ya siye tum-0 am yenaki-ke-0
> > e-e-ni-pu-m-a
> > > time past-LOC place-all-ERG talk one-ABS and
> > word-PAUC-0
> > > 3IN-3IN-possess.IPFV-SG-IPFV-POS.IND
> > > 11:2 Um lupomisum isulomamena lu Sinanekem luponu
> > eyuluwepuna am lumekem
> > > umhikimlosumma.
> > > Um-NOM lupomi-sum i-su-lo-m-a-me-na lu Sina-ne-kem
> > luponu-0
> > > e-i-uluwe-pu-n-a am lume-kem
> > > man-NOM east-ABL 3AN-move.IPFV-PL-IPFV-POS.IND-REL-ERG
> > place
> > > Shinar-GEN-LOC plain-ABS 3IN-3AN-find-SG-PFV-POS.IND
> > > um-i-kim-lo-sum-m-a
> > > REFL-3AN-be.at-PL-CAUS-IPFV-POS.IND
> > > 0 - zero morpheme
> > > 3 - third person
> > > ABL - ablative case
> > > ABS - absolutive case
> > > AN - animate
> > > CAUS - causative
> > > ERG - ergative case
> > > GEN - genitive case
> > > IN - inanimate
> > > IND - indicative mood
> > > IPFV - imperfective mood
> > > LOC - locative case
> > > NOM - nominative case
> > > PAUC - Paucal number
> > > PFV - perfective mood
> > > PL - plural number
> > > POS - positive polarity
> > > REFL - reflexive
> > > REL - relative marker
> > > SG - singular number
> > > More later!
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:27 am ((PDT))
On 10 April 2012 13:14, Armin Buch <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello Conlangers,
>
> this is going to be very linguistic and mostly uninteresting - unless you
> want to know how to make your conlang even more different from natlangs.
>
> I was just asked an interesting question: Are there any context-sensitive
> conlangs?
Christophe's posts on Suffixaufnahme led me to reading this paper (:
http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mkracht/html/suffixaufnahme.pdf)
which mentions that Swiss German is context-sensitive and argues that
Old Georgian is context-sensitive. Without actually going through the
mathematical arguments, since I don't know Moten to be able to do
that, I would guess that Moten is probably context-sensitive for
similar reasons.
Now this got me thinking about loglangs and "ease of learning" and
classes of universals again. The computational complexity of parsing a
sentence is defined by the kind of grammar to be parsed. Therefore,
some grammars (and the languages that use those grammars) will be
inherently more difficult to parse than others, requiring more time &
energy to perform the computational task of understanding them than
others.
This provides a nice objective, quantitative handle on at least one
measurement of what "easy to learn" means. A language whose grammar
falls into a lower computational complexity class should be easier to
learn, all other things being equal, than a language whose grammar
falls into a higher complexity class. This muddies the classification
of types of linguistic universals into "constraints on learnability"
and "constraints on evolvability", since learnability is not a binary
classification and evolution ought to tend to push things in the
direction of greater learnability.
-l.
Messages in this topic (12)
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2b. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:36 pm ((PDT))
On 2012-04-12 19:26, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> A language whose grammar falls into a lower computational complexity
> class should be easier to learn, all other things being equal, than a
> language whose grammar falls into a higher complexity class.
You're now assuming that what's easy for a computer is also easy for a
human and vice versa. That's usually not the case.
t.
Messages in this topic (12)
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2c. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:48 pm ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:36:40 +0200 taliesin the storyteller wrote:
> On 2012-04-12 19:26, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> > A language whose grammar falls into a lower computational complexity
> > class should be easier to learn, all other things being equal, than a
> > language whose grammar falls into a higher complexity class.
>
> You're now assuming that what's easy for a computer is also easy for a
> human and vice versa. That's usually not the case.
Indeed not! A case in point is Fith, which is almost trivially
easy to parse with a computer (which is the reason why languages
such as Forth or PostScript were designed that way), but I seriously
doubt that any human being could ever speak and understand it in
real time, at least when ample use is made of its stack manipulation
devices.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (12)
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2d. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "Tristan" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:25 pm ((PDT))
> > On 2012-04-12 19:26, Logan Kearsley wrote:
> > > A language whose grammar falls into a lower computational complexity
> > > class should be easier to learn, all other things being equal, than a
> > > language whose grammar falls into a higher complexity class.
> >
> > You're now assuming that what's easy for a computer is also easy for a
> > human and vice versa. That's usually not the case.
> Indeed not! A case in point is Fith, which is almost trivially
> easy to parse with a computer (which is the reason why languages
> such as Forth or PostScript were designed that way), but I seriously
> doubt that any human being could ever speak and understand it in
> real time, at least when ample use is made of its stack manipulation
> devices.
Um... Fith, at least in my understanding, actually falls into a higher
complexity class than any human language, but is more natural to parse
with computers (which are theoretically able to parse any grammar, given
enough time). Humans can also parse any grammar, but probably not, shall
we say, without conscious effort. My personal observation is that I can
tell something is ungrammatical without thinking about it, but I can't
always tell what makes it so until I think about it (especially with lots
of clauses).
enjoy,
tristan
--
All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Messages in this topic (12)
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2e. Re: Context-sensitive conlangs
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:46 pm ((PDT))
On 12 April 2012 14:36, taliesin the storyteller
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2012-04-12 19:26, Logan Kearsley wrote:
>>
>> A language whose grammar falls into a lower computational complexity
>> class should be easier to learn, all other things being equal, than a
>> language whose grammar falls into a higher complexity class.
>
>
> You're now assuming that what's easy for a computer is also easy for a human
> and vice versa. That's usually not the case.
I'm making no such assumption; computational complexity is independent
of the subtrate that executes the computation.
Your brain, being a computing device, *must* use a certain minimum
amount of energy to parse a particular grammar, and that minimum is
different for different kinds of grammars.
If your brain actually had the capacity for parsing any grammar with
the optimal algorithm, then what's easy for a human and what's easy
for a computer would be much more closely aligned; that's part of the
"all other things being equal" clause. Of course, it doesn't have that
capacity; presumably we've got some particular parsing techniques
"compiled in", and can thus accomplish them faster than others which
we would have to exert conscious effort to perform (like parsing
Fith).
But if one could successfully identify all of the kinds of parsing
algorithms that are part of the human linguistic faculty vs. all those
that have to be consciously learned as math, then relative ease within
each category should more closely follow computational complexity.
-l.
Messages in this topic (12)
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2f. Fith Texts
Posted by: "Miles Forster" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:57 pm ((PDT))
Hi,
have any of the usual texts been translated into Fith? I'm thinking of
something like the Babel text. If not, are there any original works in
Fith with English transcripts? I'd like to record some Fith text and
listen to it.
--
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
Messages in this topic (12)
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2g. Re: Fith Texts
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:46 pm ((PDT))
Along the same lines, does anyone have the Fith dictionary?
stevo
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi,
> have any of the usual texts been translated into Fith? I'm thinking of
> something like the Babel text. If not, are there any original works in Fith
> with English transcripts? I'd like to record some Fith text and listen to
> it.
>
> --
> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: Fith Texts
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:47 pm ((PDT))
There appears to be only one Fith text on line:
http://www.langmaker.com/fithtexts.htm
Adam
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Miles Forster <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi,
> have any of the usual texts been translated into Fith? I'm thinking of
> something like the Babel text. If not, are there any original works in Fith
> with English transcripts? I'd like to record some Fith text and listen to
> it.
>
> --
> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
2i. Re: Fith Texts
Posted by: "Miles Forster" [email protected]
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:32 am ((PDT))
I'd also very much like to see it.
âM
Am 13.04.2012 00:45, schrieb MorphemeAddict:
> Along the same lines, does anyone have the Fith dictionary?
>
> stevo
>
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Miles Forster<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> have any of the usual texts been translated into Fith? I'm thinking of
>> something like the Babel text. If not, are there any original works in Fith
>> with English transcripts? I'd like to record some Fith text and listen to
>> it.
>>
>> --
>> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
>> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>>
--
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. Happy Ides of April!
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:16 am ((PDT))
Salvete onmes!
Happy Ides of April!
I've decided now is the time to come out of my self-imposed
'hibernation' and return to the list.
During my period away I had intended to work on Brx, but got
side-tracked ;)
I've done more on TAKE. There's been a bit of revision on
some pages, but these were occasioned by actually using the
language. For those interested (and can cope with the Greek
alphabet), there is a version of the Babel text at:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/TAKE/BabelText.pdf
..and of the Pater Noster and other prayers at:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/TAKE/CommonPrayers.pdf
As I worked on TAKE, I felt more and more that I would like
to work on a vaguely Greek-based conlang that did not have
the constraints I had imposed on TAKE. The result is
'Outidic' which uses the Roman alphabet and is a fictional
17th century auxlang.
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/index.html
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/OrthoAndPhono.html
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (1)
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