There are 16 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1b. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
From: David McCann
1c. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
From: Jim Henry
1d. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
From: George Marques
1e. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
From: Ph. D.
2.1. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3a. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
From: David Peterson
3b. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
From: Alex Fink
3c. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
From: Puey McCleary
3d. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
From: Matthew A. Gurevitch
4a. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
From: Daniel Bowman
4b. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
From: Matthew Turnbull
4c. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
From: Zach Wellstood
4d. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
From: Sam Stutter
4e. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
From: Virginia Keys
5.1. Re: Destroying the noun/verb distinction
From: Logan Kearsley
Messages
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1a. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:56 am ((PDT))
On 26 April 2012 16:16, George Marques <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >As you can see, only the subclause is moved behind the final verb. All the
> >other participants still appear before the verb.
>
> I see... So I'll need to make the main clauses SVO when they have
> subordinate clauses?
>
>
No. The main clause is still SOV. It's just that any heavy phrase or
subclause (except the subject) can (and usually will) be moved after the
verb. To give you another example where something else than the direct
object is moved behind the verb:
Ik denk dat ik een speciaal apparaat nodig heb _om jou te verstaan_:
I think that I need a special device _to understand you_.
Here, the actual object: "een speciaal apparaat" appears in front of the
verb, but the infinite final clause "om jou te verstaan" appears after it.
In this case, the heavy clause is *not that heavy*, so you could write:
Ik denk dat ik _om jou te verstaan_ een speciaal apparaat nodig heb.
Or even:
Ik denk dat ik een speciaal apparaat _om jou te verstaan_ nodig heb.
Although that last one feels a bit awkward (maybe because the object and
the verb get separated so much).
As you can see, the movement is optional (although the heavier the
complement is, the more likely it is to move after the verb), and the word
order is still SOV (otherwise, the form of the verb would be "heb nodig",
not "nodig heb"). Moreover, the movement is the only thing happening, i.e.
it's a wholesale movement of a complement from one position to the other,
without anything else happening.
> In an strictly SOV manner:
> I think that the child read that she was pretty
> =>I that the child that she pretty was read think
> Or with particles:
> =>I NOM that the child NOM that she NOM pretty ABS was ABS read ABS think
>
> (Now both NOM and ABS particles seem to be unneeded, the sentence have the
> same confusion with or without them; ABS would be needed, tho, for
> patient/involuntary subject in intransitive verbs). When I reach the end of
> this sentence I already forgot who "think"! Well, the verb decline by
> person an it helps to find out who do which thing, yet it seems still
> confusing with this level of subordination.
>
>
Yeah, the confusion would exist in the Dutch example as well if one didn't
move the heavy clause behind the verb.
> Putting into examples, making the main clause SVO seems more confusing:
> =>I think that the child that she pretty was read
> Unless I left only the minor level in verb-final form:
> =>I think that the child read that she pretty was
>
That's exactly how it looks in Dutch, although the actual word order is
still SOV. Moving heavy constituants behind the verb is an extra, optional
rule, that happens on top of the normal word order.
> In the latter, where would I put my beloved particles? In this case
> they're all direct objects, so a particle maybe is just an ornament.
> However with other kind of arguments (locative or comitative for example)
> I'd need'em.
>
>
Exactly in the same place as you'd do if you just moved the clause
wholesale:
I NOM think that the child NOM read ABS that she NOM pretty ABS was ABS
with this order used only because "think" and "read" both have heavy
objects in this case. In a normal case, the SOV order would prevail.
That's, of course, just a single possibility. There may be more. I'm not
that familiar with head-first SOV languages (my Moten is strictly SOV, but
also strictly head-last. And even then it has a mechanism for adding
participants after the verb, because people are sloppy and sometimes only
remember to include an argument once they've already pronounced the verb.
Even Japanese can do that).
> To make things worse, I have a particle for "between" (intrative) which
> receive two arguments and both come before it (this is another reason I'd
> like to create that "end clause" particle).
>
> I think I'm going the wrong way now. I'll try to gather more examples and
> do things in a more concrete way, because these abstract thoughts are hard
> to realize.
>
Please do!
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (19)
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1b. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:07 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 21:01:11 -0300
George Marques <[email protected]> wrote:
> In developing my first new language motivated by a book Iâm writing
> and I wanted, naturally, to make it different from the languages that
> I already know. One of these things was to change from the SVO order
> to SOV. I like how it sounds, but Iâm having trouble with subordinate
> clauses. It seems to me that long sentences will fall into a big verb
> group in the end and itâll be hard to know which argument go to which
> verb.
A lot of verb-final languages avoid subordinate clauses by the use of
participles and converbs (verbal adverbs). Consider Turkish:
Otobüse binerken Fatma'yı gördük.
bus board.while Fatma.acc see.past.we
As we were boarding the bus, we saw Fatma.
KonuÅan adam sustu.
speak.pres-part man silent.past.3
The man who was speaking fell silent.
Tamil is generally strict about having one verb per sentence. It does
have some subordinating devices, but these don't result in "verb
pile-ups":
nÄRRu vantÄn-Ä nÄN avaNaic cantittÄN.
yesterday come.past.3-and I.nom he.acc meet.past.1
I met the man who came yesterday.
avaN varuvÄN ÄNÄl nÄN avaNiá¹am pÄcuvÄN.
he.nom come.fut.3 become.cond I.nom he.loc speak.fut.1
If he comes, I shall speak to him.
In this case, the clause "avaN varuvÄN" is traditionally considered the
object of the impersonal verb "ÄNÄl".
Messages in this topic (19)
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1c. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:37 am ((PDT))
On 4/25/12, George Marques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:22:46 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>The first this is that I would write your English sentence like this:
>>
>>The child, who was pretty, read.
>
> Thanks for the advice, I was unsure about the commas. Portuguese seems to me
> much more comma heavy than English and that lead me to suppress them
> sometimes.
As a native English speaker, I'd say the commas in that sentence
aren't necessarily necessary. I'd tend to use commas (or maybe
parentheses) around a nonrestrictive relative clause and not use them
around a restrictive relative clause. I.e., if you're distinguishing
the child who was pretty from the child who wasn't pretty, omit the
commas. If the listener already knows which child you're talking
about, but doesn't already know they're pretty, use the commas. --
This would make more sense with a different example than "who was
pretty". E.g., restrictive:
My brother who lives in Athens designs games.
-- that would tend to imply that I have more than one brother, and my
listener knows that, and I'm identifying which one I'm talking about
with "who lives in Athens". These forms are nonrestrictive:
My brother, who lives in Athens, designs games.
My brother (who lives in Athens) designs games.
That is, I might think that my listener already knows I have just one
brother, or knows which of my brothers I'm talking about, but might
not know that he lives in Athens or designs games. Of course, in
spoken language, those punctuation patterns correspond to pauses and
intonation patterns which are not as easy to describe as the
punctuation that represents them.
Otherwise, I agree with what Ph.D. said about distinguishing relative
from other subordinate clauses; many languages treat them differently.
My gjâ-zym-byn is typically OVS; it marks relative clauses with the
relativizer {lÅ}, and other subordinate clauses with the conjunctions
{hÅÅ} or {ðÅÅ}, but in either case, the entire subordinate clause
tends to go after the entire main clause. It doesn't have different
verb forms for use in different kinds of clauses, although there are
some mood particles that tend to occur more often in certain kinds of
subordinate clause than in main clauses, or which have a different
sense in subordinate clauses than when used in main clauses.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (19)
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1d. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
Posted by: "George Marques" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:15 pm ((PDT))
All right, I did some lurking in the internet to find a good sentence and use
it as example. As I said before, Mihousapeja still don't have a lexical to
allow me to make translations, so I'll keep everything in English. Let's start
with this, which have 3 subordinate clauses:
Whenever he heard the question, the old man who lived in that house, answered
that the earth is flat.
To SOV:
=>Whenever he, the old man who in that house lives, the question heard that the
earth flat is answered.
Particles must not be absent:
=>Whenever he NOM, the old man who NOM that house LOC lives, the question ABS
heard, that the earth NOM flat ABS is ABS answered.
It seems clear to me, maybe because of the structure of the original sentence
which made me put things in the right place. I don't think I'd write the
original in that way, if I wanted say such a thing, but let's move on to a more
complicated example.
This one have 4 subordinate clauses:
I knew a man, who believed that, if a man were permitted to make the ballads,
he need not care who made the laws of the nation.
=>I NOM a man, who NOM that ABS believed, if a man NOM to make the ballads ABS
were permitted, he NOM who NOM the laws of the nation ABS made ABS not need ABS
care ABS knew.
Wow, that's pretty much what I was talking about: the verbs all cluster in the
end. In this case, though, the verb "care" is in the infinitive, a noun form (I
think), so it may change a little:
=>I NOM a man, who NOM that ABS believed, if a man NOM to make the ballads ABS
were permitted, he NOM care ABS not need who NOM the laws of the nation ABS
made ABS knew.
Still confusing because the main verb is too far from the subject, right? To
fix that I would, if Iâm not mistaken, do this:
=>I NOM a man ABS knew, who NOM that ABS believed, if a man NOM to make the
ballads ABS were permitted, he NOM care ABS not need who NOM the laws of the
nation ABS made.
Clearer and still SOV. I think I now understand what Christophe said (or maybe
not).
In this case, "that" plays a big role referring to something that is yet to
come. It does that in the original too, but it refers to the thing right after
it and in my "translation" there's a verb in the way. Does it has something to
do with the relative clauses Ph. D talked about? I still don't know how to
distinct them.
Messages in this topic (19)
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1e. Re: Subordinate clauses in SOV syntax
Posted by: "Ph. D." [email protected]
Date: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:23 am ((PDT))
George Marques wrote:
> All right, I did some lurking in the internet to find a good sentence and use
> it as example. As I said before, Mihousapeja still don't have a lexical to
> allow me to make translations, so I'll keep everything in English. Let's
> start with this, which have 3 subordinate clauses:
>
> Whenever he heard the question, the old man who lived in that house, answered
> that the earth is flat.
> To SOV:
> =>Whenever he, the old man who in that house lives, the question heard that
> the earth flat is answered.
> Particles must not be absent:
> =>Whenever he NOM, the old man who NOM that house LOC lives, the question ABS
> heard, that the earth NOM flat ABS is ABS answered.
I see the original sentence as
(Whenever he heard the question) (the old man [who lived in that house]
answered) (that the earth is flat)
which I think would be something like
=> Whenever he the question heard, the old man who in that house lived
that the earth flat is answered.
The book "Describing Morphosyntax" has a couple of sentences from a
natlang called Wappo which is SOV:
ah ce k'ew ew tumtah hatiskhi.
1S that man fish bought know.
= I know that man bought fish.
ah ce k'ew ew tumuhk hak'se.
1S that man fish to-buy want.
= I want that man to buy fish.
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (19)
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2.1. Re: another conlang promoted to natlanghood: Denden
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:45 pm ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:21:11 -0400 Sai wrote:
> As a hypothetical for amusement:
>
> Supposing that more linguistics were done confusing conlangs for
> natlangs, how might linguistic theories change as a result? (Pick
> confused-as-nat conlangs as you prefer to make for an amusing
> discussion of the results.)
Old Albic would certainly stir up much debate among Indo-
Europeanists (the language is obviously related but different
in many ways, and could be assumed to represent a branch that
split off much earlier than Anatolian), especially those who
assume that Pre-PIE was an active/stative language. Also, of
course, it would give an obvious answer on the question of the
substratum in Insular Celtic, and a new explanation of the Old
European hydronymy and dozens of apparent substratum loanwords
in European languages.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (42)
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3a. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:49 pm ((PDT))
On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
> Thanks, I think I've read about that sentence somewhere ("The Language
> Instinct" is the most possible source). Did he do that intentionally or was
> it just the way of presentation?
Well, he certainly didn't do it by accident. ;) I think it fit as part of the
style of Absalom, Absalom! It's essentially a series of personal reflections
and family histories and secrets revealed through the inner monologue of the
narrator, and so it takes on the form of anecdotes and histories contained
within anecdotes and histories the narrator is remembering told by people at
various points in time, without being strictly chronological. This particular
part is a sentence that ends one chapter, goes for a page or two, and then
there's an open parens ( and the sentence continues for a few pages, and ends
with an en dash. Then the next chapter begins and continues the sentence, and
it goes on for, like, another twenty pages (and somewhere near the end the
parenthetical comment closes). What I don't remember about this sentence in
particular is the content. It's shortly after the midway point of the book, so
it's not at a crucial point, but I'm sure there's a purpose for doing it this
way (Faulkner wouldn't have just done it to do it). It's a book I'll have to
revisitand plan to, after finally reading The Sound and the Fury (Absalom,
Absalom! is a prequel, of sorts).
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:37 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 15:49:48 -0700, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Nikolay Ivankov wrote:
>
>> Thanks, I think I've read about that sentence somewhere ("The Language
>> Instinct" is the most possible source). Did he do that intentionally or was
>> it just the way of presentation?
>
>Well, he certainly didn't do it by accident. ;) I think it fit as part of the
>style of Absalom, Absalom! It's essentially a series of personal reflections
>and family histories and secrets revealed through the inner monologue of the
>narrator, and so it takes on the form of anecdotes and histories contained
>within anecdotes and histories the narrator is remembering told by people at
>various points in time, without being strictly chronological. This particular
>part is a sentence that ends one chapter, goes for a page or two, and then
>there's an open parens ( and the sentence continues for a few pages, and ends
>with an en dash. Then the next chapter begins and continues the sentence, and
>it goes on for, like, another twenty pages (and somewhere near the end the
>parenthetical comment closes). What I don't remember about this sentence in
>particular is the content. It's shortly after the midway point of the book, so
>it's not at a crucial point, but I'm sure there's a purpose for doing it this
>way (Faulkner wouldn't have just done it to do it). It's a book I'll have to
>revisit--and plan to, after finally reading The Sound and the Fury (Absalom,
>Absalom! is a prequel, of sorts).
)
... sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Alex
Messages in this topic (10)
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3c. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:37 pm ((PDT))
Perhaps someone could post an example of a "Monster Sentence" from Cicero
or Saint Paul as a translation challenge for the group? Of course, a
sentence with many culturally specific terms will be suitably changed from
language to language.
Personally, I've had trouble with some of the last sentences in Chapter XII
of "Alice," and they're far shorter than what I'd expect from Cicero. Part
of that has to do with translating Carroll's, and some of it has to do with
the way he's constructed the sentences.
Messages in this topic (10)
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3d. Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
Posted by: "Matthew A. Gurevitch" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:15 pm ((PDT))
The beginning of Cicero's defense of the poet Archias has some very long
sentences.
In Latin:
Si quid est in me ingeni, iudices, quod sentio quam sit exiguum, aut si qua
exercitatio dicendi, in qua me non infitior mediocriter esse versatum, aut si
huiusce rei ratio aliqua ab optimarum artium studiis ac disciplina profecta, a
qua ego nullum confiteor aetatis meae tempus abhorruisse, earum rerum omnium
vel in primis hic A. Licinius fructum a me repetere prope suo iure debet.
The same passage in English
If there is any natural ability in me, O judges,--and I know how slight that
is; or if I have any practice as a speaker,--and in that line I do not deny
that I have some experience; or if I have any method in my oratory, drawn from
my study of the liberal sciences, and from that careful training to which I
admit that at no part of my life have I ever been disinclined; certainly, of
all those qualities, this Aulus Licinius is entitled to be among the first to
claim the benefit from me as his peculiar right.
Hope this is what you are asking for as an example monster sentence.
(This might also help with that other thread about embedded clauses in SOV word
order)
--Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: Puey McCleary <[email protected]>
To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: Monster sentences, was: Re: [CONLANG] Fith Texts
Perhaps someone could post an example of a "Monster Sentence" from Cicero
or Saint Paul as a translation challenge for the group? Of course, a
sentence with many culturally specific terms will be suitably changed from
language to language.
Personally, I've had trouble with some of the last sentences in Chapter XII
of "Alice," and they're far shorter than what I'd expect from Cicero. Part
of that has to do with translating Carroll's, and some of it has to do with
the way he's constructed the sentences.
Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:17 pm ((PDT))
There is quite a bit of anticipation on the Friday Fictioneers blog
community on possible conlang flash fiction! I encourage anyone interested
in trying their hand at flash to give it a whirl.
Hope to see you there!
Danny
2012/4/25 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> All,
>
> I recently started a blog in order to participate in a weekly flash
> fiction exercise called Friday Fictioneers. I've been doing it for about 3
> weeks now, and I have a lot of fun with it. However, I was thinking about
> it recently and I realized that it would make an excellent way to practice
> translating in a conlang as well. I know that us conlangers are always up
> for a translation challenge, so I contacted the person who is in charge of
> Friday Fictioneers and asked if she was interested in having it take on a
> conlangey twist. She was all for it!
>
> Here's how it works. The weekly event is hosted on Madison Woods' blog.
> Madison is a writer of "speculative fiction with a surreal and sometimes
> dark edge" (to quote her blog), and many of her followers do so as well.
> On Wednesday, she posts a photo on her blog. On Friday, she posts a 100
> word flash fiction piece based on that photo, and her many followers
> comment with links to their own flash fiction based on the photo. Everyone
> reads and comments on each others' work, and it is a great way to get
> community feedback.
>
> I thought that we could use this as an opportunity to write flash fiction
> *in our conlangs* and post it, along with an English translation and
> perhaps a very brief description of the language, in a similar way to how
> the other writers post their flash fiction. Madison asks that we tag our
> comments with "CL" to differentiate them from people looking to read
> natlang flash fiction.
>
> Here's this week's prompt. Instructions on how the event works are below
> the photo:
>
>
> http://madisonwoods.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/photo-prompt-for-100-word-flash-fridayfictioneers-27/
>
> If you are interested in reading my past FF stories, they're here:
>
> http://glossarch.wordpress.com/category/friday-fictioneers/
>
> Looking forward to some conlang fiction!
>
> Danny
>
> PS and yes, I did make a blog with the username "glossarch"...I couldn't
> resist.
>
Messages in this topic (11)
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4b. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:26 pm ((PDT))
This sounds kind of cool, I shall try and participate :)
On 4/26/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> There is quite a bit of anticipation on the Friday Fictioneers blog
> community on possible conlang flash fiction! I encourage anyone interested
> in trying their hand at flash to give it a whirl.
>
> Hope to see you there!
>
> Danny
>
> 2012/4/25 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
>
>> All,
>>
>> I recently started a blog in order to participate in a weekly flash
>> fiction exercise called Friday Fictioneers. I've been doing it for about
>> 3
>> weeks now, and I have a lot of fun with it. However, I was thinking
>> about
>> it recently and I realized that it would make an excellent way to
>> practice
>> translating in a conlang as well. I know that us conlangers are always
>> up
>> for a translation challenge, so I contacted the person who is in charge
>> of
>> Friday Fictioneers and asked if she was interested in having it take on a
>> conlangey twist. She was all for it!
>>
>> Here's how it works. The weekly event is hosted on Madison Woods' blog.
>> Madison is a writer of "speculative fiction with a surreal and sometimes
>> dark edge" (to quote her blog), and many of her followers do so as well.
>> On Wednesday, she posts a photo on her blog. On Friday, she posts a 100
>> word flash fiction piece based on that photo, and her many followers
>> comment with links to their own flash fiction based on the photo.
>> Everyone
>> reads and comments on each others' work, and it is a great way to get
>> community feedback.
>>
>> I thought that we could use this as an opportunity to write flash fiction
>> *in our conlangs* and post it, along with an English translation and
>> perhaps a very brief description of the language, in a similar way to how
>> the other writers post their flash fiction. Madison asks that we tag our
>> comments with "CL" to differentiate them from people looking to read
>> natlang flash fiction.
>>
>> Here's this week's prompt. Instructions on how the event works are below
>> the photo:
>>
>>
>> http://madisonwoods.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/photo-prompt-for-100-word-flash-fridayfictioneers-27/
>>
>> If you are interested in reading my past FF stories, they're here:
>>
>> http://glossarch.wordpress.com/category/friday-fictioneers/
>>
>> Looking forward to some conlang fiction!
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> PS and yes, I did make a blog with the username "glossarch"...I couldn't
>> resist.
>>
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (11)
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4c. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:41 pm ((PDT))
Posted about it here:
http://conlangers.deviantart.com/journal/CONLANG-Flash-Fictioneers-298599599
Sounds like it's a great idea! I can't wait to try it.
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Matthew Turnbull <[email protected]> wrote:
> This sounds kind of cool, I shall try and participate :)
>
> On 4/26/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > There is quite a bit of anticipation on the Friday Fictioneers blog
> > community on possible conlang flash fiction! I encourage anyone
> interested
> > in trying their hand at flash to give it a whirl.
> >
> > Hope to see you there!
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > 2012/4/25 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> >
> >> All,
> >>
> >> I recently started a blog in order to participate in a weekly flash
> >> fiction exercise called Friday Fictioneers. I've been doing it for
> about
> >> 3
> >> weeks now, and I have a lot of fun with it. However, I was thinking
> >> about
> >> it recently and I realized that it would make an excellent way to
> >> practice
> >> translating in a conlang as well. I know that us conlangers are always
> >> up
> >> for a translation challenge, so I contacted the person who is in charge
> >> of
> >> Friday Fictioneers and asked if she was interested in having it take on
> a
> >> conlangey twist. She was all for it!
> >>
> >> Here's how it works. The weekly event is hosted on Madison Woods' blog.
> >> Madison is a writer of "speculative fiction with a surreal and
> sometimes
> >> dark edge" (to quote her blog), and many of her followers do so as well.
> >> On Wednesday, she posts a photo on her blog. On Friday, she posts a
> 100
> >> word flash fiction piece based on that photo, and her many followers
> >> comment with links to their own flash fiction based on the photo.
> >> Everyone
> >> reads and comments on each others' work, and it is a great way to get
> >> community feedback.
> >>
> >> I thought that we could use this as an opportunity to write flash
> fiction
> >> *in our conlangs* and post it, along with an English translation and
> >> perhaps a very brief description of the language, in a similar way to
> how
> >> the other writers post their flash fiction. Madison asks that we tag
> our
> >> comments with "CL" to differentiate them from people looking to read
> >> natlang flash fiction.
> >>
> >> Here's this week's prompt. Instructions on how the event works are
> below
> >> the photo:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://madisonwoods.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/photo-prompt-for-100-word-flash-fridayfictioneers-27/
> >>
> >> If you are interested in reading my past FF stories, they're here:
> >>
> >> http://glossarch.wordpress.com/category/friday-fictioneers/
> >>
> >> Looking forward to some conlang fiction!
> >>
> >> Danny
> >>
> >> PS and yes, I did make a blog with the username "glossarch"...I couldn't
> >> resist.
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:45 pm ((PDT))
Ditto. Got a couple of important things to do first, so give it a week or so.
Don't wait up :-P
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 27 Apr 2012, at 00:26, Matthew Turnbull <[email protected]> wrote:
> This sounds kind of cool, I shall try and participate :)
>
> On 4/26/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> There is quite a bit of anticipation on the Friday Fictioneers blog
>> community on possible conlang flash fiction! I encourage anyone interested
>> in trying their hand at flash to give it a whirl.
>>
>> Hope to see you there!
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> 2012/4/25 Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I recently started a blog in order to participate in a weekly flash
>>> fiction exercise called Friday Fictioneers. I've been doing it for about
>>> 3
>>> weeks now, and I have a lot of fun with it. However, I was thinking
>>> about
>>> it recently and I realized that it would make an excellent way to
>>> practice
>>> translating in a conlang as well. I know that us conlangers are always
>>> up
>>> for a translation challenge, so I contacted the person who is in charge
>>> of
>>> Friday Fictioneers and asked if she was interested in having it take on a
>>> conlangey twist. She was all for it!
>>>
>>> Here's how it works. The weekly event is hosted on Madison Woods' blog.
>>> Madison is a writer of "speculative fiction with a surreal and sometimes
>>> dark edge" (to quote her blog), and many of her followers do so as well.
>>> On Wednesday, she posts a photo on her blog. On Friday, she posts a 100
>>> word flash fiction piece based on that photo, and her many followers
>>> comment with links to their own flash fiction based on the photo.
>>> Everyone
>>> reads and comments on each others' work, and it is a great way to get
>>> community feedback.
>>>
>>> I thought that we could use this as an opportunity to write flash fiction
>>> *in our conlangs* and post it, along with an English translation and
>>> perhaps a very brief description of the language, in a similar way to how
>>> the other writers post their flash fiction. Madison asks that we tag our
>>> comments with "CL" to differentiate them from people looking to read
>>> natlang flash fiction.
>>>
>>> Here's this week's prompt. Instructions on how the event works are below
>>> the photo:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://madisonwoods.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/photo-prompt-for-100-word-flash-fridayfictioneers-27/
>>>
>>> If you are interested in reading my past FF stories, they're here:
>>>
>>> http://glossarch.wordpress.com/category/friday-fictioneers/
>>>
>>> Looking forward to some conlang fiction!
>>>
>>> Danny
>>>
>>> PS and yes, I did make a blog with the username "glossarch"...I couldn't
>>> resist.
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
4e. Re: Conlang Flash Fiction: Friday Fictioneers
Posted by: "Virginia Keys" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:26 pm ((PDT))
Might be interesting, but I doubt I'll get one up this week. I'll keep an eye
on it though.
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5.1. Re: Destroying the noun/verb distinction
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:21 pm ((PDT))
On 24 April 2012 04:21, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> neo gu, On 24/04/2012 01:46:
>>
>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:05:49 -0600, Logan Kearsley<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> interpretation or routing around it. Thus, it seems more accurate to
>>>
>>> me to say that, e.g., in Lojban all open-class words denote relations,
>>> and therefore any of them can be used as predicates.
>
> [...]
>
>> I think there's some confusion regarding the traditional conlangish
>> use of the word predicate, which possibly should be "relation"
>> instead.
>
> It's not a conlangish use, it's thus in general linguistics too, where
> "predicate" often means only "thing that has arguments". "Relation" too
> tends to be applied exclusively to binary relations, not relations with less
> than or more than two arguments. Logan's terminological distinction is
> motivated by utility -- the need for exactitude -- rather than conformity to
> prevailing norms of usage.
Precisely. Prevailing norms of linguistic, usage, anyway, as
contrasted with prevailing norms of usage among logicians. There's
nothing particularly wrong with words meaning different things in
different fields, but not having been aware of the difference leads to
confusion. And a need to figure out how to say the same thing in a
linguistic context.
On 24 April 2012 08:08, Sai <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 15:02, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
>> A predicate is a function that takes zero or more arguments and
>> outputs a truth value (which is equivalent to cutting a set out
>> of a universe). Examples of predicates are:
>>
>> "X gives Y to Z"
>
>> These can be written as:
>
>> give (X,Y,Z)
>
>
> Just as an aside: I've always hated the latter form. It's horribly
> ambiguous and L1-presumptive. It's like a _quidquid Latinum_ for code,
> making it look more logic-y while in fact making it *less* clearly
> precise. Argh.
Hm. Maybe we should come up with a new mathematical notation for
predicate logic based on Smalltalk:
[X give: Y to: Z]
> (At the risk of invoking NCNC, I find the same true of programming
> language argument structures, whose orders are also often not clear at
> all without explicitly referring to the documentation, and bad coders
> [or PHP coders /oblig] often presume otherwise, to the detriment of
> legibility. Object-oriented languages, eg Ruby, improve this somewhat
> by letting functions have an implicit self, thus making at least
> up-to-two-argument functions pretty clearly defined and just as a
> matter of culture, they tend to switch to using hashes with named
> arguments when linear arguments become unwieldy, which is akin to
> switching from a syntax-based to theta-role-marking system.)
Er, do you mean perhaps case-marking system? Syntax-based systems do
after all use syntax for the purpose of indicating theta-roles. Or did
you mean specifically the kind of system in which there is a distinct
marking for every possible role, independent of the
verb/preposition/whatever that it's associated with?
-l.
Messages in this topic (34)
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