There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: BPJ
1b. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: And Rosta
1c. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Adam Walker
1d. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Puey McCleary
1e. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Peter Cyrus
2.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: David McCann
2.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Logan Kearsley
2.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Garth Wallace
2.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: And Rosta
2.6. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3a. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: David McCann
4a. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
From: Douglas Koller
5.1. The...the...
From: Charlie Brickner
5.2. Re: The...the...
From: Matthew A. Gurevitch
5.3. Re: The...the...
From: MorphemeAddict
5.4. Re: The...the...
From: [email protected]
5.5. Re: The...the...
From: MorphemeAddict
5.6. Re: The...the...
From: Michael Everson
5.7. Re: The...the...
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
5.8. Re: The...the...
From: Adam Walker
5.9. Re: The...the...
From: Padraic Brown
5.10. Re: The...the...
From: Adam Walker
6a. My UC Berkeley Conlangs DE-Cal classes now on YouTube
From: Sai
6b. Re: My UC Berkeley Conlangs DE-Cal classes now on YouTube
From: Sai
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 8:15 am ((PDT))
On 2012-05-04 07:45, Peter Cyrus wrote:
> How about "casative"?
There was no CASARE -- not even in Vulgar Latin if Meyer-Lübke is
to be trusted --, and *if* it had existed I'm sure it would have
meant 'set up house, start a family'.
Even though the meaning of the case called "apudessive"
in NE Caucasian languages isn't quite what we're after
here I never heard that cases in different languages
which are given the same label by linguists always have
the same meaning or function. A good grammar is required
to describe the function of any case, however labelled,
in the language under description. E.g. the Finnish case
labelled "nominative" has a rather restricted function
compared to the same-labelled case of (most) Indo-European
languages.
/bpj
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 AM, And Rosta<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
>>
>>> On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
>>>
>>>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
>>>> and _disseminative_?
>>>>
>>>
>>> _disseminative_ is well-formed.
>>>
>>
>> I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho
>> on checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
>>>> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
>>>> A, et al.
>>>>
>>>
>>> _dispersive_ is better.
>>>
>>
>> It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from _dispergere_,
>> but it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that English
>> linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_ (rather
>> than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively
>> the formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from
>> the participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a potential
>> _dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested
>> _dispersative_.
>>
>>
>> The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
>>> _apudessive_ ;)
>>>
>>
>> O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!
>>
>> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
>>>> _andative_ comes from?
>>>>
>>>
>>> ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
>>>
>>> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
>>> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
>>> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
>>>
>>
>> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology and
>> orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that
>> gives it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to
>> conform to expected standards of terminological probity.
>>
>> --And.
>>
>
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 10:40 am ((PDT))
R A Brown, On 04/05/2012 08:11:
> On 04/05/2012 00:55, And Rosta wrote:
>> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with
>> Latin phonology and orthography. _Chezative_ is
>> consistent with neither --
>
> Not entirely true. Certainly _ch_ and _z_ are not found in
> native Latin words (_ch_ did creep into the spelling of a
> few, e.g _pulcher_ for earlier _pulcer_) - but they are
> found in words borrowed from Greek.
>
> Now there was a Greek χέζω _chézō_ = "I shit". It's not
> exactly a great flight of imagination to think there might
> have been a colloquial *chezáre "to shit", which makes the
> _chezative_ case not so much ...
Ah, excellent observation! (Liddell Scott has "to ease oneself, do one's need",
whose obliquity would probably have defeated my understanding.)
Now, whose conlang will be the first to have a *true* chezative? (/'kiyz@t@v/
('ki:z@tIv/), I suppose.) Let us allow that it might be a mood rather than a
case.
--And.
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 11:49 am ((PDT))
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 12:40 PM, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> R A Brown, On 04/05/2012 08:11:
>
>> On 04/05/2012 00:55, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with
>>> Latin phonology and orthography. _Chezative_ is
>>> consistent with neither --
>>>
>>
>> Not entirely true. Certainly _ch_ and _z_ are not found in
>> native Latin words (_ch_ did creep into the spelling of a
>> few, e.g _pulcher_ for earlier _pulcer_) - but they are
>> found in words borrowed from Greek.
>>
>> Now there was a Greek χέζω _chézō_ = "I shit". It's not
>> exactly a great flight of imagination to think there might
>> have been a colloquial *chezáre "to shit", which makes the
>> _chezative_ case not so much ...
>>
>
> Ah, excellent observation! (Liddell Scott has "to ease oneself, do one's
> need", whose obliquity would probably have defeated my understanding.)
>
> Now, whose conlang will be the first to have a *true* chezative? (/'kiyz@t@v/
> ('ki:z@tIv/), I suppose.) Let us allow that it might be a mood rather
> than a case.
>
> --And.
>
My conlang will not have a chezative in the above (or any other sense),
BUT I have decided that I will borrow chezo as chezari in Carrajina and
I'm almost pervese enough to enter it in the dictionary with the definition
"to ease oneself".
chezu - I poop
cheza -- you doodoo
chezad -- he/she does his/her business
chezamus -- we go potty
chezas -- you(pl) ease yourselves
chezans -- they do their need
Wow. those last two sound worse than just coming right out and saying it.
Adam
Messages in this topic (17)
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1d. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Puey McCleary" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 12:58 pm ((PDT))
Dubitative mood? Glottal thrills? Chetative easing of oneself? This has
been a very strange week on the list. And the week's not over yet.
Messages in this topic (17)
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1e. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 1:32 pm ((PDT))
French "chez" and Catalan "ca" both come from "casa", (at the) house (of).
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:15 PM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2012-05-04 07:45, Peter Cyrus wrote:
>
>> How about "casative"?
>>
>
> There was no CASARE -- not even in Vulgar Latin if Meyer-Lübke is
> to be trusted --, and *if* it had existed I'm sure it would have
> meant 'set up house, start a family'.
>
> Even though the meaning of the case called "apudessive"
> in NE Caucasian languages isn't quite what we're after
> here I never heard that cases in different languages
> which are given the same label by linguists always have
> the same meaning or function. A good grammar is required
> to describe the function of any case, however labelled,
> in the language under description. E.g. the Finnish case
> labelled "nominative" has a rather restricted function
> compared to the same-labelled case of (most) Indo-European
> languages.
>
> /bpj
>
>
>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 AM, And Rosta<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
>>>
>>> On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
>>>>> and _disseminative_?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _disseminative_ is well-formed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho
>>> on checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
>>>>
>>>>> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
>>>>> A, et al.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _dispersive_ is better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from
>>> _dispergere_,
>>> but it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that
>>> English
>>> linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_
>>> (rather
>>> than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively
>>> the formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from
>>> the participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a
>>> potential
>>> _dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested
>>> _dispersative_.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
>>>
>>>> _apudessive_ ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!
>>>
>>> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
>>>
>>>> _andative_ comes from?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
>>>>
>>>> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
>>>> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
>>>> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology
>>> and
>>> orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that
>>> gives it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to
>>> conform to expected standards of terminological probity.
>>>
>>> --And.
>>>
>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 8:24 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 4 May 2012 00:44:06 +0200
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3 May 2012 17:46, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On the question of Japanese, the use of a word like "boku" by men is
> > not a grammatical constraint, but a social one.
>
>
> Well, so is the use of "he" to refer to a woman. The sentence "he
> wants to talk to you" doesn't suddenly become ungrammatical when you
> learn that the referent for the subject is actually female. It
> becomes semantically incorrect (because it's considered socially
> unacceptable to call a woman a "he"), but grammatically it's still
> perfectly sound. Same with "boku" in Japanese, although due to the
> nature of Japanese pronouns the semantics are not as clear-cut.
No. Would you say that some-one who referred to a table as "il" in
French had made a social gaffe or a semantic mistake? It would show
that either they didn't know the gender of "table" or they didn't
understand the rules for choosing between "il" and "elle". Either would
show a lack of grammatical knowledge. Using a pronoun of the wrong
gender is a grammatical error, unless you want to redefine "grammar",
in which case our discussions won't get very far!
Messages in this topic (49)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 8:46 am ((PDT))
On 4 May 2012 17:24, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2012 00:44:06 +0200
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 3 May 2012 17:46, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > On the question of Japanese, the use of a word like "boku" by men is
> > > not a grammatical constraint, but a social one.
> >
> >
> > Well, so is the use of "he" to refer to a woman. The sentence "he
> > wants to talk to you" doesn't suddenly become ungrammatical when you
> > learn that the referent for the subject is actually female. It
> > becomes semantically incorrect (because it's considered socially
> > unacceptable to call a woman a "he"), but grammatically it's still
> > perfectly sound. Same with "boku" in Japanese, although due to the
> > nature of Japanese pronouns the semantics are not as clear-cut.
>
> No. Would you say that some-one who referred to a table as "il" in
> French had made a social gaffe or a semantic mistake?
A semantic mistake. But that's different from a grammatical mistake. Using
"il" with a plural verb would be a grammatical mistake.
> It would show
> that either they didn't know the gender of "table" or they didn't
> understand the rules for choosing between "il" and "elle". Either would
> show a lack of grammatical knowledge.
No, a lack of semantic knowledge.
> Using a pronoun of the wrong
> gender is a grammatical error, unless you want to redefine "grammar",
> in which case our discussions won't get very far!
>
I've always understood "grammar" to be *only* about the structure of a
language, i.e. the combination of its morphology and syntax, and things
like phonology and semantics to be separate from grammar itself (in other
words, to me "grammar" has always been basically an umbrella term for
"morphology and syntax"). Clearly we have a different understanding of the
word "grammar". I don't think mine is wrong per se, but I'm prepared to be
convinced otherwise if sufficient evidence is brought forth.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (49)
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2.3. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 9:00 am ((PDT))
On 4 May 2012 09:24, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2012 00:44:06 +0200
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 3 May 2012 17:46, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > On the question of Japanese, the use of a word like "boku" by men is
>> > not a grammatical constraint, but a social one.
>>
>>
>> Well, so is the use of "he" to refer to a woman. The sentence "he
>> wants to talk to you" doesn't suddenly become ungrammatical when you
>> learn that the referent for the subject is actually female. It
>> becomes semantically incorrect (because it's considered socially
>> unacceptable to call a woman a "he"), but grammatically it's still
>> perfectly sound. Same with "boku" in Japanese, although due to the
>> nature of Japanese pronouns the semantics are not as clear-cut.
>
> No. Would you say that some-one who referred to a table as "il" in
> French had made a social gaffe or a semantic mistake? It would show
> that either they didn't know the gender of "table" or they didn't
> understand the rules for choosing between "il" and "elle". Either would
> show a lack of grammatical knowledge. Using a pronoun of the wrong
> gender is a grammatical error, unless you want to redefine "grammar",
> in which case our discussions won't get very far!
That's not the same thing. The choice of "il" vs. "elle" in French is
determined by *grammatical* gender, a property of lexical items, and
thus getting it wrong is a *grammatical* error. But the choice of "he"
vs. "she" in English is determined solely by actual semantic gender, a
property of referents, not lexical items, and thus is a semantic
error, not necessarily a grammatical one (though it *could* be a
grammatical error, if the reason for it is that the person speaking
didn't actually know the distinction between "he" and "she"). No
amount of grammatical or lexical knowledge is going to save you if you
happen to be mistaken about the actual gender classification of the
person you're referring to!
Now, none of that resolves the question of whether or not it's a
grammatical issue in Japanese. But that's kinda my point; how things
work in French or in English is not evidence for how things work in
Japanese. It requires someone knowledgeable specifically in how
Japanese works to determine how much gender is a grammatical and how
much a semantic category in this case.
-l.
Messages in this topic (49)
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2.4. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 9:44 am ((PDT))
On 5/4/12, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4 May 2012 09:24, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 May 2012 00:44:06 +0200
>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3 May 2012 17:46, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On the question of Japanese, the use of a word like "boku" by men is
>>> > not a grammatical constraint, but a social one.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, so is the use of "he" to refer to a woman. The sentence "he
>>> wants to talk to you" doesn't suddenly become ungrammatical when you
>>> learn that the referent for the subject is actually female. It
>>> becomes semantically incorrect (because it's considered socially
>>> unacceptable to call a woman a "he"), but grammatically it's still
>>> perfectly sound. Same with "boku" in Japanese, although due to the
>>> nature of Japanese pronouns the semantics are not as clear-cut.
>>
>> No. Would you say that some-one who referred to a table as "il" in
>> French had made a social gaffe or a semantic mistake? It would show
>> that either they didn't know the gender of "table" or they didn't
>> understand the rules for choosing between "il" and "elle". Either would
>> show a lack of grammatical knowledge. Using a pronoun of the wrong
>> gender is a grammatical error, unless you want to redefine "grammar",
>> in which case our discussions won't get very far!
>
> That's not the same thing. The choice of "il" vs. "elle" in French is
> determined by *grammatical* gender, a property of lexical items, and
> thus getting it wrong is a *grammatical* error. But the choice of "he"
> vs. "she" in English is determined solely by actual semantic gender, a
> property of referents, not lexical items, and thus is a semantic
> error, not necessarily a grammatical one (though it *could* be a
> grammatical error, if the reason for it is that the person speaking
> didn't actually know the distinction between "he" and "she"). No
> amount of grammatical or lexical knowledge is going to save you if you
> happen to be mistaken about the actual gender classification of the
> person you're referring to!
>
> Now, none of that resolves the question of whether or not it's a
> grammatical issue in Japanese. But that's kinda my point; how things
> work in French or in English is not evidence for how things work in
> Japanese. It requires someone knowledgeable specifically in how
> Japanese works to determine how much gender is a grammatical and how
> much a semantic category in this case.
That's easy: Japanese doesn't have grammatical gender. There is no
agreement of any kind, and there's only one class of nouns.
I'd say the situation here is a matter of pragmatics. As Christophe
said, "boku" is sometimes used by female singers just to fit the
meter, with no implication of masculinity, which suggests that any
connotation of maleness is dependent on context. I believe it's just a
particularly informal word, since men in formal situations use
"watashi" instead just like women do. Female speech in Japanese tends
to be more formal than men's; many of the most easily recognizable
features of female speech (using rhetorical questions with "ne?" in
place of plain statements, use of the softer "wa yo" instead of "yo")
are hedging strategies, at least in origin.
Messages in this topic (49)
________________________________________________________________________
2.5. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 10:21 am ((PDT))
David McCann, On 04/05/2012 16:24:
> On Fri, 4 May 2012 00:44:06 +0200
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 3 May 2012 17:46, David McCann<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On the question of Japanese, the use of a word like "boku" by men is
>>> not a grammatical constraint, but a social one.
>>
>>
>> Well, so is the use of "he" to refer to a woman. The sentence "he
>> wants to talk to you" doesn't suddenly become ungrammatical when you
>> learn that the referent for the subject is actually female. It
>> becomes semantically incorrect (because it's considered socially
>> unacceptable to call a woman a "he"), but grammatically it's still
>> perfectly sound. Same with "boku" in Japanese, although due to the
>> nature of Japanese pronouns the semantics are not as clear-cut.
>
> No. Would you say that some-one who referred to a table as "il" in
> French had made a social gaffe or a semantic mistake? It would show
> that either they didn't know the gender of "table" or they didn't
> understand the rules for choosing between "il" and "elle". Either would
> show a lack of grammatical knowledge. Using a pronoun of the wrong
> gender is a grammatical error, unless you want to redefine "grammar",
> in which case our discussions won't get very far!
The grammar generates sentences, which include some sort of specification of
the meaning they encode. Reference is a property of utterances. So an utterance
that invokes a sentence with "he" but refers to a woman is anomalous, but not
ungrammatical; the anomaly may be due to ignorance of the grammar, or to a
social gaffe, or to something else. In the case of the sentence with "il" and
the utterance referring to a table, either (i) it's essentially analogous to
the English case, because just as the interpretation of "he" is something that
belongs to a category that doesn't include women, so the interpretation of "il"
is something that belongs to a category that doesn't include tables, or (ii)
syntactically _il_ always occurs with a phonologically deleted noun and there
is no noun that means "table" and can occur with "il" and hence there is no
sentence that the utterance can be invoking.
It's debatable whether sociolinguistic constraints are part of the grammar,
e.g. constraints on English vocative "love", "mate", "dude" -- and perhaps
Japanese _boku_ --, though I think the debate is ultimately a question of
definition (of _grammar_) and there is a need both for a broader sense of
langue that includes sociolinguistic constraints and for a narrower sense,
which I call _glottonomy_, that excludes it and deals only with correspondences
between form and meaning. But even with a sense of grammar that includes
sociolinguistic constraints, it seems to me that an utterance that makes a
grammatical mistake is one that fails to invoke a grammatical sentence rather
than one that invokes a grammatical sentence whose sociolinguistic constraints
are flouted by the utterance. This is a question only of definition, but also
of what is the best definition.
--And.
Messages in this topic (49)
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2.6. Re: Gender in First Person Singular
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 10:48 am ((PDT))
On 4 May 2012 18:00, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> That's not the same thing. The choice of "il" vs. "elle" in French is
> determined by *grammatical* gender, a property of lexical items, and
> thus getting it wrong is a *grammatical* error. But the choice of "he"
> vs. "she" in English is determined solely by actual semantic gender, a
> property of referents, not lexical items, and thus is a semantic
> error, not necessarily a grammatical one (though it *could* be a
> grammatical error, if the reason for it is that the person speaking
> didn't actually know the distinction between "he" and "she"). No
> amount of grammatical or lexical knowledge is going to save you if you
> happen to be mistaken about the actual gender classification of the
> person you're referring to!
>
>
Actually, I've thought about it while driving back home, and I believe even
in French this question is more complicated than it seems.
First, there is the question of "what is grammar?". I adhere to a very
strict definition of grammar as "morphology+syntax". This usage is not mine
alone. You can find it for instance on Wikipedia, where the pages
"<Language> grammar" contain only descriptions of morphology and syntax.
Discussions of phonology and word meanings, for instance, go to different
pages (or to a single "<Language> language" page). That said, YMMV.
Second, there is the question of whether the choice of a particular pronoun
is determined solely by grammatical gender in the languages that have it.
I'm tempted to say: "it depends". I'm pretty sure it's not true in French
for instance, and I am going to prove it.
There are two phenomena at hand here: grammatical gender agreement, and
choice of pronoun. Clearly French has grammatical gender agreement: saying
*"le table" is grammatically incorrect, as "table" is grammatically
feminine. You have to say "la table". However, is using the phrase "la
table" in one sentence, and referring to it in a following sentence as "il"
also a mistake in grammatical gender agreement? Saying "yes" would be
basically like saying that gender agreement can happen across sentences,
and I'm not sure that's a valid way to describe things. The problem is that
I've always understood sentences to be "grammatically complete and
independent units". If the choice of pronoun "il" or "elle" depends on the
grammatical gender of the noun used in a former sentence to represent the
referent, then the sentence where the pronoun appears is *not*
grammatically independent. It depends on a previous sentence for the
correct choice of pronoun. To me, that makes little sense.
Moreover, I know many examples where the correct pronoun usage is actually
in grammatical *disagreement* with the noun used. For instance, in French
many animals have names that are single-gendered. For instance, "girafe"
is feminine, and there is no masculine equivalent. Yet a zoo caretaker (who
normally knows the sex of the animals under their care) will normally
always refer to a male girafe as "il", even if they mentioned that same
giraffe as "cette girafe" (with feminine agreement) in a previous sentence
(although saying "elle" would likely be acceptable as well, if frowned
upon).
Here's an even stricter example, where the *only* right way is to use the
pronoun that *disagrees* with the noun in grammatical gender. Take a
journalist writing about "le ministre américain des affaires étrangères",
i.e. "the American foreign affairs secretary". The head noun is masculine,
with masculine agreement on the article and the adjective. Yet if the
journalist in a following sentence refers to that same person with a
pronoun only, they will only ever use "elle", as they know that the person
in question is Hillary Clinton, who is definitely not an "il"! The only
right way to refer to the person who was first referred to with a masculine
phrase is with a feminine pronoun (note that in this case, some people have
adopted the feminine "la ministre", but many others still use the word
"ministre" only in the masculine gender, even when the referent is female).
Because of those examples (and I can think of many others, French
profession names are often single-gendered), I can't agree that pronoun
choice in French is solely a matter of grammatical gender. There's
definitely a semantic component that is more important in many cases. In
cases of inanimate objects and concepts, the semantic component is
irrelevant, and the pronoun choice defaults to the grammatical gender of
the noun used for the referent (although things can become more complicated
for things that can be referred to by nouns of different genders), but I'm
wary to call that a phenomenon of grammatical agreement. In any case, when
there is a semantic component, it takes priority over the grammatical
gender.
So, as my French examples show, even in a language that has grammatical
gender and agreement, pronoun choice needn't be done only on that basis.
There may be languages that do so (my Maggel is one of them :P ), but
French at least is a counter-example.
> Now, none of that resolves the question of whether or not it's a
> grammatical issue in Japanese. But that's kinda my point; how things
> work in French or in English is not evidence for how things work in
> Japanese. It requires someone knowledgeable specifically in how
> Japanese works to determine how much gender is a grammatical and how
> much a semantic category in this case.
>
>
Completely agreed.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (49)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 8:39 am ((PDT))
On Thu, 3 May 2012 10:26:05 -0600
Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> Do you have examples of languages that use paratactic constructions
> for complements? I'm not entirely sure I know what that would look
> like.
Both clauses will have a fully inflected verb and the complement clause
will have a normal verb type and no complementiser or other marker to
show that it's subordinate. The construction is an areal feature in
Africa. Lango (Nilotic) has
Àtín òpòpyò òcègò dɔ̀gòlà
child remember.PAST.3SG close.PAST.3SG door
and
Àtín òpòpyò cèggò dɔ̀gòlà
child remember.PAST.3SG close.INFIN door
both meaning
The child remembered to close the door.
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 11:11 am ((PDT))
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 22:36:02 -0400
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: TRANSLATION: Air Traffic Control
> To: [email protected]
> This is an interesting and challenging translation exercise.
> "Air Traffic Control will allow me to launch my solar balloon next week."
> Please do not use the dubitative mood :-)
Consider it done. The indicative it is:
Chü bvöküchraks chek vangaböhathseng lín sít höi chö mörautílabsöt síteböt cha
helkethlünsav shí lomashkélakh.
the control.bureau-nom. the-pl. flight-gen./pl. aux.-fut./caus. me-acc. HÖI the
solar.balloon-acc. the next.week-loc. "lettingly"-fut.(agrees with aux.) launch
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5.1. The...the...
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 3:09 pm ((PDT))
I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date with new
grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the Northwind" I
encountered the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the merrier." I
seem to remember reading about this on the list but couldn't find it in the
archives. Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be appreciated.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.2. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "Matthew A. Gurevitch" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 3:16 pm ((PDT))
To me this seems like a zero-cupola where the two parts are both substantives
of comparative adjectives, and to separate the noun phrases, the definiteness
is marked.
That is, "more (people) are (a) better (group)", or something like that, and
English has a construction that allows that to become "the more, the merrier."
What I mean to say is that it is a specific quirk of English that can easily be
converted to a more easily translatable (at least for me) form.
--Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Brickner <[email protected]>
To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, May 4, 2012 6:09 pm
Subject: The...the...
I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date with new
grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the Northwind" I
encountered
the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the merrier." I seem to
remember reading about this on the list but couldn't find it in the archives.
Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be appreciated.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.3. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 3:21 pm ((PDT))
Curiously, I have this same open question on the Klingon list.
stevo
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Charlie Brickner <[email protected]
> wrote:
> I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date with
> new grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the Northwind" I
> encountered the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the merrier."
> I seem to remember reading about this on the list but couldn't find it in
> the archives. Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be appreciated.
>
> Charlie
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.4. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 3:25 pm ((PDT))
Well, Esperanto has two special words, "ju" and "des":
Ju pli multe, des pli felicxe = The more, the merrier
Ju malpli rapide, des pli bone = The slower, the better
Ju pli rapide mi legas la libron, des pli baldaux mi povas ekdormi.
=> The faster I read the book, the sooner I can fall asleep.
--Ph. D.
Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date
> with new grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the
> Northwind" I encountered the construction "the...the..." as in "the
> more, the merrier." I seem to remember reading about this on the
> list but couldn't find it in the archives. Any help from natlangs
> and conlangs would be appreciated.
>
> Charlie
>
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.5. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 3:30 pm ((PDT))
Another possibility is interpreting the phrase as a logical condition:
The more, the better => If there were more X, there would be more Y, or If
W were more X, then W would be more Y, where W is understood from context.
stevo
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Matthew A. Gurevitch <[email protected]>wrote:
> To me this seems like a zero-cupola where the two parts are both
> substantives of comparative adjectives, and to separate the noun phrases,
> the definiteness is marked.
>
> That is, "more (people) are (a) better (group)", or something like that,
> and English has a construction that allows that to become "the more, the
> merrier."
>
> What I mean to say is that it is a specific quirk of English that can
> easily be converted to a more easily translatable (at least for me) form.
>
> --Matthew
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charlie Brickner <[email protected]>
> To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
> Sent: Fri, May 4, 2012 6:09 pm
> Subject: The...the...
>
>
> I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date with
> new
> grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the Northwind" I
> encountered
> the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the merrier." I seem to
> remember reading about this on the list but couldn't find it in the
> archives.
> Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be appreciated.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.6. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 3:35 pm ((PDT))
It's German "je... desto..."
On 4 May 2012, at 23:25, [email protected] wrote:
> Well, Esperanto has two special words, "ju" and "des":
>
> Ju pli multe, des pli felicxe = The more, the merrier
>
> Ju malpli rapide, des pli bone = The slower, the better
>
> Ju pli rapide mi legas la libron, des pli baldaux mi povas ekdormi. => The
> faster I read the book, the sooner I can fall asleep.
> --Ph. D.
> Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date with new
>> grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the Northwind" I
>> encountered the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the merrier."
>> I seem to remember reading about this on the list but couldn't find it in
>> the archives. Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be appreciated.
>> Charlie
>>
>>
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.7. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 5:47 pm ((PDT))
On 5 May 2012 00:35, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
> It's German "je... desto..."
>
>
In Dutch it's "hoe... hoe..." ("how... how...") or "hoe... des te...":
"Hoe meer, hoe leuker" or "hoe meer, des te leuker": the more, the merrier.
In French one simply constructs two parallel clauses starting with a
comparative without article. The equivalent of "the more, the merrier" here
is: _plus on est de fous, plus on rit_.
I've thought about this construction already, but I'm still not sure how to
handle it in Moten. I think it will be based on _opa... opa..._: both...
and..., but I'm still not sure how it will work...
> On 4 May 2012, at 23:25, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Well, Esperanto has two special words, "ju" and "des":
> >
> > Ju pli multe, des pli felicxe = The more, the merrier
> >
> > Ju malpli rapide, des pli bone = The slower, the better
> >
> > Ju pli rapide mi legas la libron, des pli baldaux mi povas ekdormi. =>
> The faster I read the book, the sooner I can fall asleep.
> > --Ph. D.
> > Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date
> with new grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the Northwind"
> I encountered the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the
> merrier." I seem to remember reading about this on the list but couldn't
> find it in the archives. Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be
> appreciated.
> >> Charlie
> >>
> >>
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.8. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 7:07 pm ((PDT))
Hmm. I need to think about how to do this in Carrajina. I don t think
any of the English, Dutch or French ways feel right... Adam who is
pondering
On 5/4/12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5 May 2012 00:35, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It's German "je... desto..."
>>
>>
> In Dutch it's "hoe... hoe..." ("how... how...") or "hoe... des te...":
>
> "Hoe meer, hoe leuker" or "hoe meer, des te leuker": the more, the merrier.
>
> In French one simply constructs two parallel clauses starting with a
> comparative without article. The equivalent of "the more, the merrier" here
> is: _plus on est de fous, plus on rit_.
>
> I've thought about this construction already, but I'm still not sure how to
> handle it in Moten. I think it will be based on _opa... opa..._: both...
> and..., but I'm still not sure how it will work...
>
>
>> On 4 May 2012, at 23:25, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > Well, Esperanto has two special words, "ju" and "des":
>> >
>> > Ju pli multe, des pli felicxe = The more, the merrier
>> >
>> > Ju malpli rapide, des pli bone = The slower, the better
>> >
>> > Ju pli rapide mi legas la libron, des pli baldaux mi povas ekdormi. =>
>> The faster I read the book, the sooner I can fall asleep.
>> > --Ph. D.
>> > Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date
>> with new grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the
>> Northwind"
>> I encountered the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the
>> merrier." I seem to remember reading about this on the list but couldn't
>> find it in the archives. Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be
>> appreciated.
>> >> Charlie
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.9. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 8:33 pm ((PDT))
Lucarian uses "when...then" with the superlative to accomplish this:
enam nam amplus, orim istaráj amplus: when we most, then ADJ-joy most.
Padraic
--- On Fri, 5/4/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Adam Walker <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] The...the...
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Friday, May 4, 2012, 10:07 PM
> Hmm. I need to think about how to do
> this in Carrajina. I don t think
> any of the English, Dutch or French ways feel right... Adam
> who is
> pondering
>
> On 5/4/12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > On 5 May 2012 00:35, Michael Everson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> It's German "je... desto..."
> >>
> >>
> > In Dutch it's "hoe... hoe..." ("how... how...") or
> "hoe... des te...":
> >
> > "Hoe meer, hoe leuker" or "hoe meer, des te leuker":
> the more, the merrier.
> >
> > In French one simply constructs two parallel clauses
> starting with a
> > comparative without article. The equivalent of "the
> more, the merrier" here
> > is: _plus on est de fous, plus on rit_.
> >
> > I've thought about this construction already, but I'm
> still not sure how to
> > handle it in Moten. I think it will be based on _opa...
> opa..._: both...
> > and..., but I'm still not sure how it will work...
> >
> >
> >> On 4 May 2012, at 23:25, [email protected]
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well, Esperanto has two special words, "ju"
> and "des":
> >> >
> >> > Ju pli multe, des pli felicxe = The more, the
> merrier
> >> >
> >> > Ju malpli rapide, des pli bone = The slower,
> the better
> >> >
> >> > Ju pli rapide mi legas la libron, des pli
> baldaux mi povas ekdormi. =>
> >> The faster I read the book, the sooner I can fall
> asleep.
> >> > --Ph. D.
> >> > Charlie Brickner <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >> >> I've been going over past translations and
> bringing them up to date
> >> with new grammar and vocabulary. In going
> over "The Sun and the
> >> Northwind"
> >> I encountered the construction "the...the..." as in
> "the more, the
> >> merrier." I seem to remember reading about
> this on the list but couldn't
> >> find it in the archives. Any help from
> natlangs and conlangs would be
> >> appreciated.
> >> >> Charlie
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> >
> > http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> > http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
> >
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
5.10. Re: The...the...
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 8:47 pm ((PDT))
Well I pulled a few books off the shelf, and when I hit upon the
Italian ~quanto ... tanto~, I knew I was on to something. It took a
few minutes, but I realized that I already had the structure I wanted,
~tali ... bali~, just doing another job, ~such ... as~. Tali uls mutus
bali ul chu ~~ Such the more, as the better/The more, the better.
On 5/4/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hmm. I need to think about how to do this in Carrajina. I don t think
> any of the English, Dutch or French ways feel right... Adam who is
> pondering
>
> On 5/4/12, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 5 May 2012 00:35, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> It's German "je... desto..."
>>>
>>>
>> In Dutch it's "hoe... hoe..." ("how... how...") or "hoe... des te...":
>>
>> "Hoe meer, hoe leuker" or "hoe meer, des te leuker": the more, the
>> merrier.
>>
>> In French one simply constructs two parallel clauses starting with a
>> comparative without article. The equivalent of "the more, the merrier"
>> here
>> is: _plus on est de fous, plus on rit_.
>>
>> I've thought about this construction already, but I'm still not sure how
>> to
>> handle it in Moten. I think it will be based on _opa... opa..._: both...
>> and..., but I'm still not sure how it will work...
>>
>>
>>> On 4 May 2012, at 23:25, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> > Well, Esperanto has two special words, "ju" and "des":
>>> >
>>> > Ju pli multe, des pli felicxe = The more, the merrier
>>> >
>>> > Ju malpli rapide, des pli bone = The slower, the better
>>> >
>>> > Ju pli rapide mi legas la libron, des pli baldaux mi povas ekdormi. =>
>>> The faster I read the book, the sooner I can fall asleep.
>>> > --Ph. D.
>>> > Charlie Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >> I've been going over past translations and bringing them up to date
>>> with new grammar and vocabulary. In going over "The Sun and the
>>> Northwind"
>>> I encountered the construction "the...the..." as in "the more, the
>>> merrier." I seem to remember reading about this on the list but
>>> couldn't
>>> find it in the archives. Any help from natlangs and conlangs would be
>>> appreciated.
>>> >> Charlie
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>>
>> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>>
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. My UC Berkeley Conlangs DE-Cal classes now on YouTube
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 7:10 pm ((PDT))
YouTube prompted me to transfer the videos from Google Video, so I did:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL563373A63F1900E7&feature=edit_ok
I'd probably do a lot of things differently if I were to teach it
again — and I'd probably use a very different video capture method,
'cause argh that looks bad, and a whole bunch of video is just missing
— but oh well. I hope y'all enjoy it, warts n' all. This was my first
experience teaching in any really presentational capacity, and I kinda
just dove in headfirst, with attendant awkwardness.
I'm sure a genuine artlanger (which I am not) would have more to say,
but I hope I at least did well enough. I did consider basing the
classes on making an engelang, but it just wasn't a good option
pedagogically. My goals with the classes were really two things: to
teach most of the same concepts taught in an undergraduate intro
linguistics class in a more hands-on way, and to give people enough of
a taste for the art that if they were interested, they could more
easily bootstrap themselves.
Consider it a challenge to teach your own linguistics via conlanging
class, and do better. ;-) (As has been discussed on list, some people
are doing exactly this, and I think that's fantabulous.)
I think my 26C3 conference talk on conlanging
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEKcsto7Mjk), made a few years after
my second DE-Cal class, went a lot better. But hey, experience isn't
something you get to preload, eh. (Would it were.)
Enjoy,
- Sai
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: My UC Berkeley Conlangs DE-Cal classes now on YouTube
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 7:30 pm ((PDT))
P.S. Thought it might be amusing as random history:
The reason why a lot of the video was missing and some of it is messed
up at the beginning and end? I only had a small number of MiniDV tapes
to record the classes on, so I would record over the old ones in a
cycle, and the camcorder I got rented was kinda poor quality.
This is actually what lead directly to the creation of the first
Language Creation Conference and ultimately the LCS. I wanted to
improve the quality of the recordings but didn't want to have to pay a
couple hundred dollars out of pocket for more tapes & better
equipment. I found out that the UC Berkeley student union (ACSU) had
grants for that sort of thing, especially for people running DE-Cal
classes.
When I looked into how I'd go about applying for the grant, I found
out that with just a little bit extra paperwork I could get access to
substantially more funding (on the order of $1-2k). Which is what gave
me the idea to hold the first modern conference for conlang creators.
Which needed a nonprofit to donate services/money to for its second
round. Which was the LCS. Which eventually rather took on a life of
its own, huzzah.
It's come a long way since buying a few MiniDV tapes, eh?
- Sai
Messages in this topic (2)
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