There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: And Rosta
1b. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Peter Cyrus
1c. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
From: R A Brown
2a. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Padraic Brown
2b. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Patrick Dunn
2c. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Padraic Brown
2d. Re: Glottal thrill
From: Garth Wallace
3a. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
From: taliesin the storyteller
Messages
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1a. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 4:55 pm ((PDT))
R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
> On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
>> and _disseminative_?
>
> _disseminative_ is well-formed.
I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho on
checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.
>> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
>> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
>> A, et al.
>
> _dispersive_ is better.
It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from _dispergere_, but
it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that English
linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_ (rather
than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively the
formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from the
participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a potential
_dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested
_dispersative_.
> The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
> _apudessive_ ;)
O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!
>> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
>> _andative_ comes from?
>
> ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
>
> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology and
orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that gives
it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to conform to
expected standards of terminological probity.
--And.
Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Peter Cyrus" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 10:45 pm ((PDT))
How about "casative"?
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 AM, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
>
>> On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
>>> and _disseminative_?
>>>
>>
>> _disseminative_ is well-formed.
>>
>
> I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho
> on checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.
>
>
>
>> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
>>> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
>>> A, et al.
>>>
>>
>> _dispersive_ is better.
>>
>
> It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from _dispergere_,
> but it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that English
> linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_ (rather
> than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively
> the formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from
> the participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a potential
> _dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested
> _dispersative_.
>
>
> The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
>> _apudessive_ ;)
>>
>
> O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!
>
> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
>>> _andative_ comes from?
>>>
>>
>> ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
>>
>> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
>> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
>> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
>>
>
> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology and
> orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that
> gives it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to
> conform to expected standards of terminological probity.
>
> --And.
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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1c. Re: Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 12:11 am ((PDT))
On 04/05/2012 00:55, And Rosta wrote:
> R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
[snip]
>> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
>> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
>> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
>
> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with
> Latin phonology and orthography. _Chezative_ is
> consistent with neither --
Not entirely true. Certainly _ch_ and _z_ are not found in
native Latin words (_ch_ did creep into the spelling of a
few, e.g _pulcher_ for earlier _pulcer_) - but they are
found in words borrowed from Greek.
Now there was a Greek χέζω _chézō_ = "I shit". It's not
exactly a great flight of imagination to think there might
have been a colloquial *chezáre "to shit", which makes the
_chezative_ case not so much ...
> but perhaps that gives it an engaging insouciance
.. but a more earthy and basic need.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 6:13 pm ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 5/3/12, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> Voicing is glottal trilling.
Indeed.
>From what I've read, trilling is caused by forcing air over a non-resistant
membrane -- the flow of air around the airfoil causes pressure wossnames
that make the membrane flap about. Note that if you hold your tongue rigid,
you can't trill. Let it go flaccid and the trill comes quite easily.
Voicing is mediated by using muscles to place a membrane in place
over the airstream (two membranes, actually). The difference is one of
frequency -- trills seems to run in the 20Hz range, while the voice is
rather higher in pitch.
An odd thought: does the IPA have a symbol for a "fundamental" trill? :S
Padraic
> On May 3, 2012 7:55 PM, "Nikolay Ivankov" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> > I'm wondering if there are any natlangs which have a
> glottal thrill? Should
> > sound pretty orkish, but I i think my proto-Janjarin is
> to have something
> > like that alongside with other rhotic sounds. Could it
> be that IPA contains
> > a character for the glottal thrill, although I can't
> see it on the Wiki
> > page?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Kolya
> >
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 6:22 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> An odd thought: does the IPA have a symbol for a "fundamental" trill? :S
>
>
For the love of God, I hope not.
I would hate to imagine how I'd teach that one to intro to linguistics.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 7:00 pm ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 5/3/12, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> Padraic Brown <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > An odd thought: does the IPA have a symbol for a "fundamental" trill? :S
>
> For the love of God, I hope not.
>
> I would hate to imagine how I'd teach that one to intro to linguistics.
You might try some of Emperor Toot's Bean and Cabbage Slaw? I guess the
trick would be coordinating the articulation of both ends simultaneously...
Padraic
Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: Glottal thrill
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 3, 2012 10:16 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:22 PM, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> An odd thought: does the IPA have a symbol for a "fundamental" trill? :S
>>
>>
>
> For the love of God, I hope not.
>
> I would hate to imagine how I'd teach that one to intro to linguistics.
I believe it's on the same chart as the gastric egressives.
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Complement phrases in different languages
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 4, 2012 2:21 am ((PDT))
On 2012-05-03 17:56, David McCann wrote:
> All languages seem to have at least one finite and one non-finite
> construction.
Not according to Cristofaro (2005) "Subordination" if I read that one
correctly. There are languages who don't have non-finite constructions.
t.
Messages in this topic (10)
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