There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
From: Padraic Brown
2.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Daniel Prohaska
2.2. Group Project Language was Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collabor
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3.1. Re: Collaborative Method (WAS: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collabor
From: Daniel Prohaska
4a. Re: Tagalog-English dictionary
From: Roger Mills
Messages
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1a. Re: A Portrait of the Conlanger as a Young Man
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:56 am ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 9/10/12, Allison Swenson <[email protected]> wrote:
> A bit late to the party, but oddly
> enough I was around 11 or 12 when I
> started my first conlang as well! I'm giving away my youth
> here, but it was
> really because I saw the Lord of the Rings movies (well, the
> first one,
> anyway), read and was instantly hooked on the books, and was
> fascinated by
> Tolkien's languages. So of course the first thought into my
> head was to rip off his work!
That's alright! Tolkien has certainly been a great direct or indirect
influence on many of us. I recall that a couple of my classmates, after
having read LotR (we read it in I believe fourth grade and Hobbit in third)
began mimicking the runic writing for passing coded notes. I never got
into the rune-codes, but by that time had already been exposed to the
Greek and Cyrillic alphabets (from an old dictionary we had in the house)
and, of all things, a book about Old English language and culture (for a
school project), so was already working on deformed and embellished
letters.
> The language was nothing more than a relex of English and
> never got much
> farther than a list of vocabulary, but I continued to work
> on it off and on
> throughout middle school and ended up with quite a list. Now
> that I think
> about it, I believe I actually did have a very small number
> of full
> sentence translations, but I haven't the faintest idea how
> conjugation or
> anything else worked. Hmm, now I'm intrigued. I may have to
> do some digging
> through some old computers to see if I can turn anything
> up!
let us know one way or the other! And if you find anything, feel free to
create an article at Frathwiki with your earliest conlang attempts. Then
come back in 10 or 20 years and compare! ;))
> Anyway, while the project was abandoned, a few words (no
> more than perhaps
> a half-dozen) actually have survived into my current
> project, simply because they were so familiar to me.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (21)
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2.1. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 am ((PDT))
Hello,
I think such a project could be interesting if a group of conlangers could find
some kind of consensus where the cultural, historical and social setting is
concerned. For example, I would find it very interesting to create, as a group,
a proto-conlang and then have each member of the group run of and have this
proto-conlang branch out into several daughter families and languages. What do
you think?
Dan
On Sep 7, 2012, at 8:26 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Fri, 9/7/12, Matthew DeBlock <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> But think you glaze over "usage/application" with a blanket
>> statement as if to imply it is not important in your verbage here.
>
> It seems that everyone so far that has replied has basically said that,
> at least for us as artistically minded conlangers, things like usage and
> (real world) application simply aren't important measures of success, if
> they are even goals we have set!
>
>> But what I am sying by "success" is not to set some
>> standard, more what
>> the article says, that success will be decided by
>> usage/application over
>> time. I am by no means trying to lay out some standard for
>> perfection.
>
> Perhaps -- but again, I don't think most of us measure the "success" of
> our conlangs by how many people speak our languages. This might be "a"
> measure of success for a certain subset of conlangs (I'm still very much
> thinking of auxlangs here), but by in large not for artlangs or even
> engelangs.
>
>> But one must admit, much of the conlang world "suffers" from
>> a kind of "mortailty", which could be solved easily nowadays.
>
> Not everyone wants their works to be immortalized in any way. Those that
> want their conlangs to be archived can do so.
>
> Frankly, as I said previously, I think the LCS is in an ideal position to
> do something like this in a way that a university library will not be
> interested in doing.
>
>> Most conlangs I have seen are still just a devote VERY small
>> group, with obvious exceptions like esperanto.
>
> Yes. And? I fail to see the problem here...
>
>> I have no problem with musing ideologically. I'm just coming
>> from a
>> realistic perspective, coming at it form a "what will time
>> just wash away"
>> perspective and what can actually "survive and grow on its
>> own merit".
>
> By the End, time shall have washed everything away. Again, what's the
> problem here?
>
>> That is what I reffer to as success in this sense.
>>
>> I dont even want to start on the psycological frictions
>> inherint in a bunc
>> of "people playing god over imaginary kingdoms/cultures"
>> giving up their
>> "throne" and working together hehe... im not saying its
>> easy, im just
>> saying this should REALLY be dealt with.. we have the tools
>> and broadcast
>> reach...
>
> Perhaps, but I think you might need to consider the actual needs and
> wishes of your community first, then decide if there is actually something
> there that needs to be "dealt with"...
>
> Padraic
>
Messages in this topic (35)
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2.2. Group Project Language was Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collabor
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:08 am ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 9/11/12, Daniel Prohaska <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think such a project could be interesting if a group of
> conlangers could find some kind of consensus where the
> cultural, historical and social setting is concerned. For
> example, I would find it very interesting to create, as a
> group, a proto-conlang and then have each member of the
> group run of and have this proto-conlang branch out into
> several daughter families and languages. What do you think?
Yes, this sort of thing would be very entertaining and an interesting
project. I think if the parameters were set early on (including limitations
on how weird the resultant languages can get (do we think a language like
Latin could yield something like Navaho in a hundred or a thousand years?)
how realistic the scenario should be, etc) then at least everyone would
be in the same book, if not exactly on the same page.
But neither is this exactly a new game. Quite a few of us have done this
already. Most of the languages made for the Ill Bethisad project --
Brithenig, Breathanach, Wenedyk, etc. -- all start out with some
understanding of V.L. and evolve from there. Results were perhaps somewhat
haphazard, with no binding agreements as to how the languages should be,
mind.
> Dan
Padraic
Messages in this topic (35)
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2.3. Re: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collaborative Conlang Even Possible
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:18 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Tuesday 11 September 2012 13:10:43 Daniel Prohaska wrote:
> Hello,
> I think such a project could be interesting if a group of conlangers could
> find some kind of consensus where the cultural, historical and social
> setting is concerned. For example, I would find it very interesting to
> create, as a group, a proto-conlang and then have each member of the group
> run of and have this proto-conlang branch out into several daughter
> families and languages. What do you think? Dan
Exactly that is what the Akana project ( http://akana.conlang.org/ )
is about; and we are currently doing the same thing in the League
of Lost Languages.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (35)
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3.1. Re: Collaborative Method (WAS: Fiat Lingua, September: Is a Collabor
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 am ((PDT))
Nice, I like it.
Dan
On Sep 7, 2012, at 10:49 PM, Gary Shannon wrote:
> I love the idea of creating a conculture and a conlang concurrently.
> Or even creating the conculture IN the conlang. For example, to tell a
> story, say a brief version of a creation myth, in the conlang. The
> conlang only needs to be developed far enough to tell this short myth,
> and no more. Then the next person adds another story to the mythology
> corpus, creating whatever additional features and vocabulary the
> conlang needs to tell THAT myth.
>
> And the very earliest myths could be extremely simplistic, so that the
> conlang doesn't need to be "full blown", but only just rudimentary
> enough to get the project started. E.G:
>
> "Earth existed always. It was cold and dark and dry. Sun was far away
> and did not know of Earth. Then Sun discovered Earth and came to warm
> it and bring light to it. And at the end of each day Sun touches Earth
> and brings fire, and fire makes high smoke (clouds). And from high
> smoke (clouds) comes rain. And rain fills the lakes and rivers and the
> sea so that the fish and the animals can come to live on Earth. And
> Sun puts both water and fire in the high smoke and when the rain
> falls, the high smoke sends bolts of fire for the people to find and
> use to warm themselves."
>
> --gary
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Mia. <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> From my own experience with Kenakoliku, we had exactly the same precipitous
>> drop off in participation that seems to plague most collaborative conlang
>> projects.
>>
>> I don't think that it was entirely a failure because there were some things
>> that I learned from the process. There were things that worked really well
>> and things that didn't. It was easy to get vocabulary created (and then, in
>> some cases, to extract some morphology from that) by turning it into a game,
>> but there was no corresponding grammar game.For a future project, I'd remedy
>> that. I think we had some fantastic ideas come in for the writing system.
>> (And a few silly ones too. I will confess to posting the silliest ones.) If
>> I were doing it again, I'd include more not-strictly-conlanging activities,
>> perhaps in the vein of creating a conculture
>>
>> I definitely think there has to be something outside of the language itself,
>> some reason to use it, to justify the time commitment and the sustained
>> attention needed to really flesh a project out. Maybe if it were approached
>> as more interdisciplinary collaborative fiction, rather than a language
>> project, it might bring and hold people a little more.
>>
>> NGL (Tokcir), another collaboration, went on for quite a while after it
>> left CONLANG-L for its own list. I think that it was more successful than
>> average because it accommodated the wishes of different people by letting
>> them each have their own take on it. Sometimes people leave when they see
>> things aren't turning out the way they'd prefer, so some flexibility in the
>> design is a good thing. The modular design idea also seemed to work really
>> well, allowing for blocks of vocabulary and structure to be proposed as a
>> unit. And, for whatever reason, that particular little group seemed to fit
>> together pretty well socially, IMO.
>>
>>
>> Mia.
Messages in this topic (35)
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4a. Re: Tagalog-English dictionary
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:29 am ((PDT))
I don't know about online, but the standard (though a little old now) is Pedro
Serrano Laktaw's Diccionario Tagalog-Español (that may not be the correct
title) first publ. around 1900 IIRC, reprinted in the 50s or so. A good Univ.
library ought to have it. I know the Univ. of Michigan does, but I think you're
in the UK, no? Try the SOAS
Here's something on Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Diccionario-Hispano-Tagalog-Serrano-Procedente-Municipal/dp/114540216X
-- not sure it's the same thing though..
--- On Mon, 9/10/12, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
From: George Corley <[email protected]>
Subject: Tagalog-English dictionary
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, September 10, 2012, 1:04 PM
Does anyone know a really good Tagalog-English/English-Tagalog *online*
dictionary? All the ones coming up on Google are kinda crap.
Messages in this topic (2)
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