There are 7 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Logan Kearsley
1.2. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: BPJ
2a. Re: Tagalog-English dictionary
From: George Corley
3a. Re: Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
From: Anthony Miles
3b. Re: Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
From: Alex Fink
4a. Vocal fry to indicate mood
From: Daniel Myers
4b. Re: Vocal fry to indicate mood
From: George Corley
Messages
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1.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:01 pm ((PDT))
On 8 September 2012 19:03, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8 September 2012 21:47, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Does Japanese have any other pronoun-like stuff going on, like verbal
>> agreement for person?
>
>
> Nope, none at all. The closest it has is verb pairs like "ageru" and
> "kureru", both meaning "to give", but one directed towards the speaker and
> the other more towards the listener (although things are more complicated
> than that, with considerations of in-group and out-group to take into
> account). And there's the suffix "-tai": "to want", which when used implies
> that the subject is the speaker. But it's not personal agreement, just a
> cultural issue: it's considered impolite to pretend to know what somebody
> else wants. But in principle, the form with "-tai" can be used in any
> person, and sometimes is, if impolitely :) .
I find this intensely interesting. I had an idea a while back for a
language with no concept of person in which "the speaker" and "the
listener" are used as proxies for first and second person pronouns in
most cases (but of course, their referents can be totally different if
you happen to be talking about someone else speaking, the way that we
use those words in English). And now I find out that there's a
not-even-obscure ANADEW!
Now I must ponder deeply on how this sort of thing could be merged
into a Salish-inspired language where pronominal morphology is really
important....
-l.
Messages in this topic (42)
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1.2. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:31 pm ((PDT))
On 2012-09-04 01:08, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> And then the otaku themselves stopped using that word as a pronoun, but
> reappropriated themselves the word "otaku" as a self-description without
> the pejorative meaning, in a process not unlike the use of "queer" among
> gay people, or the use of the n-word among some black communities.
Or nerd among nerds, or cripple among handicapped people.
If somebody who wasn't themself handicapped would use the
word 'cripple' or 'invalid' to refer to me or someone else
who is handicapped I'd get very angry, but I and others use
them to refer to ourselves, both in group and individually.
"Hey y'old cripple! What makes you stumble into this place?"
The humor we have among ourselves is actually quite shocking
to outsiders.
>
> Such words don't go full circle, they create spirals!
Yep.
FWIW Swedish has gone through the same development wrt
honorifics as Norwegian, if not more so. An interesting
difference is that in present day Sweden adressing a
single person with a plural pronoun signals not
superiority, but dissociation or, worse, corporate
ingratiation.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (42)
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2a. Re: Tagalog-English dictionary
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:59 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't know about online, but the standard (though a little old now) is
> Pedro Serrano Laktaw's Diccionario Tagalog-Español (that may not be the
> correct title) first publ. around 1900 IIRC, reprinted in the 50s or so. A
> good Univ. library ought to have it. I know the Univ. of Michigan does, but
> I think you're in the UK, no? Try the SOAS
>
No, I am in the United States.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:56 pm ((PDT))
Well, I'll have to work in stages and upriver towards my goal conjugation of
(ngopoto, tupota, nepota/napota, nopota(mo), ngopota(ti), nipota/nepota)
pate ne nombi, qui e im queri,
The other immediate problem is that Tupi and related languages do not generally
mark plurals, but are keenly aware of nasalization. If /m/ and /n/ nasalize the
preceding
vowel, then the singular/plural distinction in Melchizedekan Romance will be
marked
by a presence vs. an absence of nasalization:
imdrem, iri < ille, illi
First of all, I don't know if nasalization is permissible to code such a
distinction. Secondly,
semi-fluent Melchizedekan speakers whose L1 is something Tupian are likely to
use
only the singular, nasalized variant, and I'm certain that's not stable over
the long term.
<snip>
> Option 2: The Tupinamba Option (this may look familiar to the creator of
> Fairylang)
> 1. /m/ and /n/ are realized as nasal allophones /m_b/ and /n_d/ when it is
> followed by a stressed syllable without any other nasal.
> 2. in stressed word-initial position, /m/ and /n/ are realized as nasal
> allophones if and only if there is not any other nasal after them in the
> word.
> 3. /m/ and /n/ always nasalize the preceding vowel.
> 4. /i^/ and /nh/ are oral and nasal allophones of the same archiphoneme.
> 5. /u^/ is realized /gu^/ in word-initial postion: /'venit/ > /'guedy/
> So Option 2 is initially complex, but lacks the pervasive effect on the
> phonology that Option 1 produces. It does, however, have the advantage that
> the Tupi did live at the mouth of the Amazon in OTL.
> linguam Romanam >
> Option 1: nri~ngua~ robada(~)
> Option 2: nri~gua~ ro~mbanda~
> Option 3, of course, is to take the principle but tweak the rules. Advice
> from Ill Bethisad hands would be beneficial here IMO.
Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Melchizedekan Romance: Two Alternatives for Nasal Harmony
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:31 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:56:54 -0400, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
>If /m/ and /n/ nasalize the preceding
>vowel, then the singular/plural distinction in Melchizedekan Romance will be
>marked
>by a presence vs. an absence of nasalization:
>imdrem, iri < ille, illi
>First of all, I don't know if nasalization is permissible to code such a
>distinction.
Permissible? I don't know what it would mean for it not to be permissible. If
word-level nasality can happen as a phonological contrast, and number can
happen as a semantic contrast, then word-level nasality can signal number.
Nothing to it.
As for the according pervasiveness of nasality, if I'm not mistaken, Ray Brown
& others will tell you that, most likely, written Latin final <-m> was in fact
entirely silent in polysyllables in Vulgar Latin, not even surviving as vowel
nasality. So your accusatives could be in the oral class after all.
Alex
Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Vocal fry to indicate mood
Posted by: "Daniel Myers" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:10 am ((PDT))
Howdy,
Has anyone used vocal fry or a similar effect to indicate grammatical
mood (e.g. dubitative)?
Of course it could have the side effect of heavy smokers always sounding
like they're uncertain.
- Doc
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Vocal fry to indicate mood
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:12 am ((PDT))
I see no reason why you couldn't. Perhaps on a particular syllable or
somesuch. Also, the technical term, I believe, is creaky voice.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Daniel Myers
<[email protected]>wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> Has anyone used vocal fry or a similar effect to indicate grammatical
> mood (e.g. dubitative)?
>
> Of course it could have the side effect of heavy smokers always sounding
> like they're uncertain.
>
> - Doc
Messages in this topic (2)
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