There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
From: Adam Walker
1b. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
From: Padraic Brown
2.1. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
From: Roman Rausch
3a. OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Roman Rausch
3b. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Gary Shannon
3c. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Zach Wellstood
3d. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: [email protected]
3e. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Matthew Boutilier
3f. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: [email protected]
3g. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Gary Shannon
3h. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Adam Walker
3i. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: And Rosta
3j. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: George Corley
3k. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Adam Walker
3l. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
From: Matthew Boutilier
Messages
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1a. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:46 am ((PDT))
I didn't get the Americana reference. But then I'm not terrribly up on my
Americana. Sad but true.
Adam
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > [This tale may sound familiar to
> > students of Americana]
>
> A sad story indeed!
>
> One part I didn't get...how did the man arrive at "because she would not
> marry me" when there's no indication of the girl's will or nill in the
> song? The mother denied the man's request, that I got; and the man
> complained to the woman about this, but is there a line missing somewhere?
> Why not just drag the mother down to the river instead?
>
> Padraic
>
> > Leya tumna laye tum ekempukima.
> > A man loved a woman.
> > Leyaya laye lu layemetu ayekena:
> > This is what the man said to the mother of the woman:
> > (the number prefix is -ke-, PAUCAL, because a Siye statement
> > will contain at least three words.
> > It is perfective because reported speech is conceived as a
> > complete act.)
> > Le layeke peme iltumpusumtetuma.
> > I want to marry your daughter.
> > Laye luya itu ayekena:
> > The mother said to him:
> > le petu layeke leme iletumpusumkakunu.
> > I do not intend you in any way to marry my daughter.
> > Itu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> > Unto her the years are few.
> > Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> > The man said to the woman:
> > laye lu pemena leso letumsosumkakunu.
> > Your mother has forbidden us to marry.
> > Iya letu ayekena:
> > She said to me:
> > petu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> > Unto you the years are few.
> > Tumku siwima ame:
> > Only say this:
> > peya letu pekimpukimam
> > you will be unto me and
> > peya ko um umsakumesone emkim pekemkukima.
> > you will be inside the arms of no other man.
> > Peya ko lemesone emkim nimu epuluwepuma.
> > You will find happiness inside my arms.
> > Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> > The man said to the woman:
> > leso sutukene tekem kemhusaki sakikemhumekem lesusome.
> > Let us two go on the path at the riverbank.
> > Iso kemhusakikem isusomam
> > The two of them walked along the bank and
> > leyaya laye yenukiki tutuku yiwipunema.
> > the man holds the woman forcefully with a knife.
> > Laye leyatu ayekena:
> > The woman said to the man:
> > la kepusumtonunu
> > do not kill me
> > le numu likemeka elekekanuya.
> > because I have not made the death gifts
> > Leya ko tuki-tuki imepuki sakikemhumsu ya iniku
> > yisupusumtumam
> > The man took her down to the water by her white, white hand
> > and
> > iso lu saki ikimsokimekem isusonumamam
> > they both went down to the water
> > leyaya ko imesoki laye yitupusumnunam
> > the man threw the woman with his hands
> > leyaya sakine emtu laye yitupusumtunam
> > the man threw the woman into the river
> > leyaya laye sakine tekem isupunumame yikoputuma.
> > the man watched the woman who floated down in the river.
> > Leya samni nelosum tummesukem imiputumam
> > The man walked home from dark (midnight) to one and
> > enepuyamkima ame:
> > thought this:
> > le pala elekenamo?
> > What have I done?
> > le laye supi ilompumame ilekepusumnuna
> > I have murdered the only woman I loved
> > iya la letumpusumkikaya
> > because she would not marry me.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:34 am ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 9/13/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I didn't get the Americana
> reference. But then I'm not terrribly up on my
> Americana. Sad but true.
That's okay -- I didn't get the Americana reference either! I was refering
to the story as given as being sad.
Padraic
>
> Adam
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Anthony Miles <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > [This tale may sound familiar to
> > > students of Americana]
> >
> > A sad story indeed!
> >
> > One part I didn't get...how did the man arrive at
> "because she would not
> > marry me" when there's no indication of the girl's will
> or nill in the
> > song? The mother denied the man's request, that I got;
> and the man
> > complained to the woman about this, but is there a line
> missing somewhere?
> > Why not just drag the mother down to the river
> instead?
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> > > Leya tumna laye tum ekempukima.
> > > A man loved a woman.
> > > Leyaya laye lu layemetu ayekena:
> > > This is what the man said to the mother of the
> woman:
> > > (the number prefix is -ke-, PAUCAL, because a Siye
> statement
> > > will contain at least three words.
> > > It is perfective because reported speech is
> conceived as a
> > > complete act.)
> > > Le layeke peme iltumpusumtetuma.
> > > I want to marry your daughter.
> > > Laye luya itu ayekena:
> > > The mother said to him:
> > > le petu layeke leme iletumpusumkakunu.
> > > I do not intend you in any way to marry my
> daughter.
> > > Itu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> > > Unto her the years are few.
> > > Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> > > The man said to the woman:
> > > laye lu pemena leso letumsosumkakunu.
> > > Your mother has forbidden us to marry.
> > > Iya letu ayekena:
> > > She said to me:
> > > petu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> > > Unto you the years are few.
> > > Tumku siwima ame:
> > > Only say this:
> > > peya letu pekimpukimam
> > > you will be unto me and
> > > peya ko um umsakumesone emkim pekemkukima.
> > > you will be inside the arms of no other
> man.
> > > Peya ko lemesone emkim nimu epuluwepuma.
> > > You will find happiness inside my arms.
> > > Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> > > The man said to the woman:
> > > leso sutukene tekem kemhusaki sakikemhumekem
> lesusome.
> > > Let us two go on the path at the riverbank.
> > > Iso kemhusakikem isusomam
> > > The two of them walked along the bank and
> > > leyaya laye yenukiki tutuku yiwipunema.
> > > the man holds the woman forcefully with a knife.
> > > Laye leyatu ayekena:
> > > The woman said to the man:
> > > la kepusumtonunu
> > > do not kill me
> > > le numu likemeka elekekanuya.
> > > because I have not made the death gifts
> > > Leya ko tuki-tuki imepuki sakikemhumsu ya iniku
> > > yisupusumtumam
> > > The man took her down to the water by her white,
> white hand
> > > and
> > > iso lu saki ikimsokimekem isusonumamam
> > > they both went down to the water
> > > leyaya ko imesoki laye yitupusumnunam
> > > the man threw the woman with his hands
> > > leyaya sakine emtu laye yitupusumtunam
> > > the man threw the woman into the river
> > > leyaya laye sakine tekem isupunumame yikoputuma.
> > > the man watched the woman who floated down in the
> river.
> > > Leya samni nelosum tummesukem imiputumam
> > > The man walked home from dark (midnight) to one
> and
> > > enepuyamkima ame:
> > > thought this:
> > > le pala elekenamo?
> > > What have I done?
> > > le laye supi ilompumame ilekepusumnuna
> > > I have murdered the only woman I loved
> > > iya la letumpusumkikaya
> > > because she would not marry me.
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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2.1. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:12 pm ((PDT))
>Not completely true. I've seen common nouns pluralised with "-ra". However,
>that happens only in archaic texts and I believe in some Japanese dialects.
Mhm, I'll need to check that.. ãããã§ãã¯ã!
>Yes, but also used as simple plural (when the group associated with "neko"
>is only made of cats), and totally optional when used that way, unless
>"neko" is used as an identifier, in which case it is *mandatory* when
>talking about the group associated with "neko". Just as with other
>identifiers like pronouns.
But then it only works with animates, _**yamatachi_ 'mountains' or
_**kawatachi_ 'rivers' isn't possible.
>Really, what you are saying is validating my point, i.e. that nouns and
>what we call pronouns in Japanese really are grammatically behaving in
>exactly the same way, to the point that there is no reason to even talk
>about a separate subset of nouns called "pronouns".
I don't disagree, just trying to clarify things.
The history of these words is also a point in case, I think. They often derive
from nouns, for instance _kimi_ 'lord' or _omae_ < _omape_ < _opo-mapye_ 'great
front'. _Watakushi_ can still be used in the sense 'private', as in
_watashigoto_ 'private affair', not necessarily of the speaker. In fact, it was
originally used in the 3rd person! On the other hand, _ore_ changed from 2nd
person to 1st! There is also a whole zoo of pronouns/identifiers which appeared
and disappeared in the course of time.
Comparing it to the situation in Indo-European where 1st and 2nd person
pronouns come straight out of the proto-language, it's quite obvious that they
are somehow different kinds of words.
Messages in this topic (44)
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3a. OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:40 pm ((PDT))
I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a peculiar thing:
Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as 'idear', with r-colouring, and
not just before vowels, but also in the plural 'ideas' = 'idears'. I think the
same happened in 'via' = 'viar'. None of them was a native speaker and all
spoke an American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first noticed it in the speech
of the chairman and it actually seems to me that the others became influenced
by him..
Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with the
retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I know about
linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much influence in science.
Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:43 pm ((PDT))
It's common in the American midwest among native speakers. It sounds
odd to my west coast native ears, but it is one of the many native
oddities one hears over here.
--gary
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a peculiar
> thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as 'idear', with
> r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in the plural 'ideas' =
> 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' = 'viar'. None of them was a
> native speaker and all spoke an American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first
> noticed it in the speech of the chairman and it actually seems to me that the
> others became influenced by him..
> Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with the
> retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I know about
> linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much influence in
> science.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:47 pm ((PDT))
My dad and his family do it, they're born and raised in NYC. It's weird to
me and often a point of poking fun.
"Tishar" for the name "Tisha"
Idear, etc.
And even more ironically, since they have the stereotypical Queens/NY
accent, they often de-rhotacize other word final syllables, like "wonda"
for "wonder." (no IPA, so...)
On Sep 13, 2012 4:43 PM, "Gary Shannon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> It's common in the American midwest among native speakers. It sounds
> odd to my west coast native ears, but it is one of the many native
> oddities one hears over here.
>
> --gary
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a peculiar
> thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as 'idear', with
> r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in the plural 'ideas' =
> 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' = 'viar'. None of them was a
> native speaker and all spoke an American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first
> noticed it in the speech of the chairman and it actually seems to me that
> the others became influenced by him..
> > Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with the
> retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I know about
> linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much influence in
> science.
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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3d. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:54 pm ((PDT))
The midwest is a big area. "Idear" is not common in Michigan, except
when someone is trying to be funny.
--Ph. D.
Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> It's common in the American midwest among native speakers. It sounds
> odd to my west coast native ears, but it is one of the many native
> oddities one hears over here.
>
> --gary
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a
> peculiar thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as
> 'idear', with r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in
> the plural 'ideas' = 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' =
> 'viar'. None of them was a native speaker and all spoke an
> American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first noticed it in the speech
> of the chairman and it actually seems to me that the others became
> influenced by him..
> > Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with
> the retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I
> know about linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much
> influence in science.
>
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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3e. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:55 pm ((PDT))
I heard 'idear' over and over in Germany -- not 'viar,' though.
My theory about it is as follows. 'Idear' is an English dialectical variant
of 'idea,' possibly going back to that thing that Brits do with inserting
/r/ between words ending with a vowel and words starting with a vowel ("I
saw-r-a film today, oh boy"). OR the dialectical variant could have arisen
just from rhotic speakers hearing non-rhotic speakers saying 'idea' and
maybe thinking it sounded like there was a non-rhotic /r/ there (think:
"Fa, a long long way to run"). If you were in e.g. Boston, and you heard a
local speaker say /ai'dia/, you might perceive the final sound as 'Boston
dialect' for the -r sound, and assume you should say it with -r in YOUR
rhotic dialect. This sort of thing happens all the time. Anyway, that's not
important. 'Idear' is in no way etymologically sound (look at the Greek).
But some of my (natively English speaking) relatives say 'idear.'
It just sounded very funny to hear from non-native English speakers, *
because* of its salient dialecticality in English. But I definitely think
it is more of a weird lexical loan that non-native English speakers use
(maybe they think it makes them sound more colloquial/native), rather than
anything phonological.
matt
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a peculiar
> thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as 'idear', with
> r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in the plural 'ideas' =
> 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' = 'viar'. None of them was a
> native speaker and all spoke an American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first
> noticed it in the speech of the chairman and it actually seems to me that
> the others became influenced by him..
> Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with the
> retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I know about
> linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much influence in
> science.
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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3f. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:59 pm ((PDT))
FWIW, the young native Chinese woman who sits by me at work, who has a
very good pronunciation of English, always says "formular".
--Ph. D.
Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a
> peculiar thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as
> 'idear', with r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in
> the plural 'ideas' = 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' =
> 'viar'. None of them was a native speaker and all spoke an
> American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first noticed it in the speech
> of the chairman and it actually seems to me that the others became
> influenced by him..
> Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with
> the retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I
> know about linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much
> influence in science.
>
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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3g. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:30 pm ((PDT))
True that. I was born and raised (for 12 years anyway) in Michigan and
never heard it there. I was thinking more WEST midwest like Kansas and
Nebraska. From where I am on the west coast Michigan is "back east",
and practically New England. ;-)
--gary
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:54 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> The midwest is a big area. "Idear" is not common in Michigan, except when
> someone is trying to be funny.
> --Ph. D.
> Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> It's common in the American midwest among native speakers. It sounds
>> odd to my west coast native ears, but it is one of the many native
>> oddities one hears over here.
>> --gary
Messages in this topic (12)
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3h. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:29 pm ((PDT))
Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were Chinese.
I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's. I can't say I've
noticed anyone else do it. Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it isn't an
importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.
Adam
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 3:59 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> FWIW, the young native Chinese woman who sits by me at work, who has a
> very good pronunciation of English, always says "formular".
> --Ph. D.
> Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a peculiar
>> thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as 'idear', with
>> r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in the plural 'ideas' =
>> 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' = 'viar'. None of them was a
>> native speaker and all spoke an American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first
>> noticed it in the speech of the chairman and it actually seems to me that
>> the others became influenced by him.. Is this effect widespread? Is it just
>> due to an unfamiliarity with the retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe
>> something similar? I know about linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't
>> really have much influence in science.
>>
>>
Messages in this topic (12)
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3i. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:47 pm ((PDT))
If the idear-sayer has a lexical contrast between words ending in "r" and words
ending in "@" then the likeliest explanation is, as Matthew says, that they
learnt the word off somebody who doesn't have the "r"/"@" contrast, so had to
guess whether it ends in "r" (commoner) or in "@" (rarer), and guessed wrong.
If the idear-sayer has no lexical contrast between words ending in "r" and
words ending in "@" then there's a greater diversity of opinion about the
appropriate phonological analysis; mine would be that "r"="@"-final words end
in a phoneme that the speaker realizes with an unconditioned rhotic allophone.
In the latter case, there's nothing etymologically unsound about "idear", since
it's the regular outcome of the etymon.
I think both sorts of pattern are found in speakers with significant exposure
to both rhotic and nonrhotic accents. I don't know which one is the likelier in
the case of Roman's workshopmates.
--And.
Matthew Boutilier, On 13/09/2012 21:55:
> I heard 'idear' over and over in Germany -- not 'viar,' though.
>
> My theory about it is as follows. 'Idear' is an English dialectical variant
> of 'idea,' possibly going back to that thing that Brits do with inserting
> /r/ between words ending with a vowel and words starting with a vowel ("I
> saw-r-a film today, oh boy"). OR the dialectical variant could have arisen
> just from rhotic speakers hearing non-rhotic speakers saying 'idea' and
> maybe thinking it sounded like there was a non-rhotic /r/ there (think:
> "Fa, a long long way to run"). If you were in e.g. Boston, and you heard a
> local speaker say /ai'dia/, you might perceive the final sound as 'Boston
> dialect' for the -r sound, and assume you should say it with -r in YOUR
> rhotic dialect. This sort of thing happens all the time. Anyway, that's not
> important. 'Idear' is in no way etymologically sound (look at the Greek).
> But some of my (natively English speaking) relatives say 'idear.'
>
> It just sounded very funny to hear from non-native English speakers, *
> because* of its salient dialecticality in English. But I definitely think
> it is more of a weird lexical loan that non-native English speakers use
> (maybe they think it makes them sound more colloquial/native), rather than
> anything phonological.
>
> matt
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Roman Rausch<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I just came back from a physics workshop where I had noticed a peculiar
>> thing: Many people were pronouncing the word 'idea' as 'idear', with
>> r-colouring, and not just before vowels, but also in the plural 'ideas' =
>> 'idears'. I think the same happened in 'via' = 'viar'. None of them was a
>> native speaker and all spoke an American-influenced rhotic dialect. I first
>> noticed it in the speech of the chairman and it actually seems to me that
>> the others became influenced by him..
>> Is this effect widespread? Is it just due to an unfamiliarity with the
>> retroflex approximant? Did anybody observe something similar? I know about
>> linking/intrusive r in RP, but RP doesn't really have much influence in
>> science.
>>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
3j. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:21 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were Chinese.
> I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's. I can't say I've
> noticed anyone else do it. Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it isn't an
> importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.
I should note that, although the standard form Mandarin is based on
Beijinghua, and a few erhuayin forms are in the standard form, the high
number of erhuayin forms that occur in everyday speech of Beijingers is
sometimes quite fiendishly mocked by southerners and Taiwanese -- so it's
not entirely prestigious.
Messages in this topic (12)
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3k. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:31 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:21 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were Chinese.
> > I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's. I can't say I've
> > noticed anyone else do it. Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it isn't
> an
> > importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.
>
>
> I should note that, although the standard form Mandarin is based on
> Beijinghua, and a few erhuayin forms are in the standard form, the high
> number of erhuayin forms that occur in everyday speech of Beijingers is
> sometimes quite fiendishly mocked by southerners and Taiwanese -- so it's
> not entirely prestigious.
>
I'm well aware of how many Taiwanese look at the -er froms. I lived in
Taiwan for 3 years, in the south, where anti-Mainland feeling runs high.
Still there is a sort of ambivalence on the order of "That's the best
Mandarin. (Doesn't it sound silly?) You foreigners should learn to sound
like that, not like us. (Don't they sound rediculous.) We don't pronounce
things right. (They sound like total idiots with all that -er flying
everywhere.)"
adam
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
3l. Re: OT: weird intrusive -r in non-native English
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:13 pm ((PDT))
>
> In the latter case, there's nothing etymologically unsound about "idear",
> since it's the regular outcome of the etymon.
>
Good point! I had not considered that the /-r/ could be seen as an
'expected' development onto the word, if this is a systematic change
occurring with all /-@/ words.
matt
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:21 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah, I had been wondering if the "non-native" in question were
> Chinese.
> > > I've often hear Chinese speakers insert extra r's. I can't say I've
> > > noticed anyone else do it. Among Chiense speakers, I wonder if it
> isn't
> > an
> > > importing or -er ending in the prestige dialect of Beijing.
> >
> >
> > I should note that, although the standard form Mandarin is based on
> > Beijinghua, and a few erhuayin forms are in the standard form, the high
> > number of erhuayin forms that occur in everyday speech of Beijingers is
> > sometimes quite fiendishly mocked by southerners and Taiwanese -- so it's
> > not entirely prestigious.
> >
>
> I'm well aware of how many Taiwanese look at the -er froms. I lived in
> Taiwan for 3 years, in the south, where anti-Mainland feeling runs high.
> Still there is a sort of ambivalence on the order of "That's the best
> Mandarin. (Doesn't it sound silly?) You foreigners should learn to sound
> like that, not like us. (Don't they sound rediculous.) We don't pronounce
> things right. (They sound like total idiots with all that -er flying
> everywhere.)"
>
> adam
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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