There are 7 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Vocal fry to indicate mood
From: Douglas Koller
2.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Padraic Brown
3b. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: G. van der Vegt
3c. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Charlie Brickner
3d. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Roger Mills
4a. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
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1a. Re: Vocal fry to indicate mood
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:27 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:12:17 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Vocal fry to indicate mood
> To: [email protected]
> I see no reason why you couldn't. Perhaps on a particular syllable or
> somesuch. Also, the technical term, I believe, is creaky voice.
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Daniel Myers
> <[email protected]>wrote:
> > Has anyone used vocal fry or a similar effect to indicate grammatical
> > mood (e.g. dubitative)?
Nor do I. If you can use tones to indicate person, tense, or mood, and stød as
the distinguishing factor between "hun" and "hund", and creaky voice tone to
alter whole morphemes, there's nothing holding you back from using creaky voice
to mark mood. Don't happen to have an ANADEW up my sleeve, though. But I
beseech you, don't have it sound like American young women when they say
"reallay' [sic.] Kou
Messages in this topic (3)
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2.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:41 am ((PDT))
On 11 September 2012 21:00, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Nope, none at all. The closest it has is verb pairs like "ageru" and
> > "kureru", both meaning "to give", but one directed towards the speaker
> and
> > the other more towards the listener (although things are more complicated
> > than that, with considerations of in-group and out-group to take into
> > account). And there's the suffix "-tai": "to want", which when used
> implies
> > that the subject is the speaker. But it's not personal agreement, just a
> > cultural issue: it's considered impolite to pretend to know what somebody
> > else wants. But in principle, the form with "-tai" can be used in any
> > person, and sometimes is, if impolitely :) .
>
> I find this intensely interesting. I had an idea a while back for a
> language with no concept of person in which "the speaker" and "the
> listener" are used as proxies for first and second person pronouns in
> most cases (but of course, their referents can be totally different if
> you happen to be talking about someone else speaking, the way that we
> use those words in English). And now I find out that there's a
> not-even-obscure ANADEW!
>
>
Well, as with anything natlangy, things are not that clear-cut even in
Japanese. While there is no strict *grammatical* category of person in the
language, semantically some nouns seem to be used exclusively as
identifiers, like "watashi" and "anata" (respectively for first and second
person). I've never seen "watashi" used as anything else than an equivalent
of "I" for instance. However, it is rarely used, as Japanese people prefer
to rely on context or constructions like the ones I describe to imply
person, rather than state it outright. So Japanese does have a concept of
person. That concept is just not grammaticalised in any way, and remains
purely in the realm of semantics.
What *is* grammaticalised however, are concepts of politeness, humility and
respect, which often imply a certain person (a verb in a humble form
implies a first person subject, or a third person subject considered to be
in the "in-group" of the speaker, while a verb in a honorific form implies
a second or third person subject), but are different from direct person
marking. Pragmatics often imply a certain person too.
> Now I must ponder deeply on how this sort of thing could be merged
> into a Salish-inspired language where pronominal morphology is really
> important....
>
> -l.
>
This would be interesting to see...
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (43)
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3a. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:26 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Or anjing 'dog', where almost every other MP language has a cognate of
> > *asu.
>
> Well, W-W has ayam!
> =====================================
>
> Ho ho, that's 'chicken' in Indonesian!! Apparently the
> original basic meaning was something like *'domesticated
> animal' or 'pet'
(: Chicken is manok. Though not sure if that's the hen or the cock, or if
it even makes a difference.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (22)
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3b. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:58 am ((PDT))
On 13 September 2012 16:26, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > Or anjing 'dog', where almost every other MP language has a cognate of
>> > *asu.
>>
>> Well, W-W has ayam!
>> =====================================
>>
>> Ho ho, that's 'chicken' in Indonesian!! Apparently the
>> original basic meaning was something like *'domesticated
>> animal' or 'pet'
>
> (: Chicken is manok. Though not sure if that's the hen or the cock, or if
> it even makes a difference.
>
> Padraic
>
Ayam certainly refers to chicken when discussing Indonesian /food/
though this may not coincide with the name for the life animal.
(There's plenty of precedent in languages for animals to have
different names from the meat produced from them. Compare English
'deer' to 'venison', 'pig' to 'pork', 'cattle animal' to 'beef' etc.)
I know I love some Saté Ayam and Ayam Pangan, though the Babi (pork)
equivalents aren't bad at all either. (Of course, the Babi equivalents
aren't on the menu in the Islamic parts of Indonesia.)
Messages in this topic (22)
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3c. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:10 am ((PDT))
>Ayam certainly refers to chicken when discussing Indonesian /food/
>though this may not coincide with the name for the life animal.
>(There's plenty of precedent in languages for animals to have
>different names from the meat produced from them. Compare English
>'deer' to 'venison', 'pig' to 'pork', 'cattle animal' to 'beef' etc.)
Senjecas handles this by putting the different items in different classes.
ÈúÅes = cow; ÈúÅos = beef
óá¹es = sheep; óá¹os = mutton, etc.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (22)
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3d. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:42 am ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 9/13/12, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Or anjing 'dog', where almost every other MP language has a cognate of
> > *asu.
>
> Well, W-W has ayam!
> =====================================
>
> Ho ho, that's 'chicken' in Indonesian!! Apparently the
> original basic meaning was something like *'domesticated
> animal' or 'pet'
(: Chicken is manok. Though not sure if that's the hen or the cock, or if
it even makes a difference.
===============================================
That's *manuk 'bird', and cognates thereof, with that meaning (or chicken) in
most languages, except good ole Indo., where 'bird' is burung. Go Figure.
Indo. doesn't do terribly well on the Swadesh list, due to too many loanwords
from Arabic/Sanskrit and replacements like ayam and burung.
Messages in this topic (22)
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4a. Re: Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:34 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> [This tale may sound familiar to
> students of Americana]
A sad story indeed!
One part I didn't get...how did the man arrive at "because she would not marry
me" when there's no indication of the girl's will or nill in the
song? The mother denied the man's request, that I got; and the man
complained to the woman about this, but is there a line missing somewhere?
Why not just drag the mother down to the river instead?
Padraic
> Leya tumna laye tum ekempukima.
> A man loved a woman.
> Leyaya laye lu layemetu ayekena:
> This is what the man said to the mother of the woman:
> (the number prefix is -ke-, PAUCAL, because a Siye statement
> will contain at least three words.
> It is perfective because reported speech is conceived as a
> complete act.)
> Le layeke peme iltumpusumtetuma.
> I want to marry your daughter.
> Laye luya itu ayekena:
> The mother said to him:
> le petu layeke leme iletumpusumkakunu.
> I do not intend you in any way to marry my daughter.
> Itu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> Unto her the years are few.
> Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> The man said to the woman:
> laye lu pemena leso letumsosumkakunu.
> Your mother has forbidden us to marry.
> Iya letu ayekena:
> She said to me:
> petu peyapomike ekimkekina.
> Unto you the years are few.
> Tumku siwima ame:
> Only say this:
> peya letu pekimpukimam
> you will be unto me and
> peya ko um umsakumesone emkim pekemkukima.
> you will be inside the arms of no other man.
> Peya ko lemesone emkim nimu epuluwepuma.
> You will find happiness inside my arms.
> Leyaya layetu ayekena:
> The man said to the woman:
> leso sutukene tekem kemhusaki sakikemhumekem lesusome.
> Let us two go on the path at the riverbank.
> Iso kemhusakikem isusomam
> The two of them walked along the bank and
> leyaya laye yenukiki tutuku yiwipunema.
> the man holds the woman forcefully with a knife.
> Laye leyatu ayekena:
> The woman said to the man:
> la kepusumtonunu
> do not kill me
> le numu likemeka elekekanuya.
> because I have not made the death gifts
> Leya ko tuki-tuki imepuki sakikemhumsu ya iniku
> yisupusumtumam
> The man took her down to the water by her white, white hand
> and
> iso lu saki ikimsokimekem isusonumamam
> they both went down to the water
> leyaya ko imesoki laye yitupusumnunam
> the man threw the woman with his hands
> leyaya sakine emtu laye yitupusumtunam
> the man threw the woman into the river
> leyaya laye sakine tekem isupunumame yikoputuma.
> the man watched the woman who floated down in the river.
> Leya samni nelosum tummesukem imiputumam
> The man walked home from dark (midnight) to one and
> enepuyamkima ame:
> thought this:
> le pala elekenamo?
> What have I done?
> le laye supi ilompumame ilekepusumnuna
> I have murdered the only woman I loved
> iya la letumpusumkikaya
> because she would not marry me.
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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