There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: Sam Stutter
1b. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: Michael Everson
1c. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: MorphemeAddict
1d. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: Gary Shannon
1e. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: BPJ
1f. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: Michael Everson
1g. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: Gary Shannon
1h. Re: Typographic Bliss
From: Patrick Dunn
2a. OT: Endangered Language research at US Universities
From: George Corley
2b. Re: OT: Endangered Language research at US Universities
From: Logan Kearsley
3a. Re: vowels: five to three?
From: Anthony Miles
4. A Language For The (Asteroid) Belt
From: Anthony Miles
5. Koha
From: Anthony Miles
Messages
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1a. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 5:37 am ((PST))
I've always thought of Λ and V as being male and female, so the Δ is only going
to confuse me :)
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 5 Feb 2013, at 18:51, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Now that Unicode is available to the world, we have a large range of
> interesting typographic squiggles that can be used in a conlang
> orthography. So what if various Unicode squiggles were chosen to
> represent the symbols in Blissymbolics? Then we'd have a type-able
> version of Bliss that might look something like this (to pick a few
> random arbitrary examples from the first few pages of the Bliss book.)
>
> Π (door)
>> Π (entrance)
> Π> (exit)
> !Π> (emergency exit)
> ─ (earth)
> O (sun)
> Ω (day)
> Ω5 (Thursday)
> Ҁ (knife, cut)
> /Ҁ (plow (earth knife))
> Ш (grain)
> ҀШ (harvest)
> Λ (man)
> Δ (woman)
> A (person)
> A1 (I, me)
> A2 (you)
> Î (pen, write)
> Ξ (letter, note, memo)
>> (to, toward, in the dirction of)
>
> A1 Î Ξ > A2 (I write letter to you)
>
> ≈ (water)
> Ж (medicine)
> ЖΛ (doctor)
> <o> (eye, see, look)
>
> Just a random brain dump in search of feedback.
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 6:28 am ((PST))
On 5 Feb 2013, at 13:51, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Now that Unicode is available to the world, we have a large range of
> interesting typographic squiggles that can be used in a conlang orthography.
> So what if various Unicode squiggles were chosen to represent the symbols in
> Blissymbolics?
No, we're going to do it properly. A first draft was made in 1998 and there
should be further work done soon.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (12)
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1c. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 6:59 am ((PST))
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Michael Everson <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2013, at 13:51, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Now that Unicode is available to the world, we have a large range of
> interesting typographic squiggles that can be used in a conlang
> orthography. So what if various Unicode squiggles were chosen to represent
> the symbols in Blissymbolics?
>
> No, we're going to do it properly. A first draft was made in 1998 and
> there should be further work done soon.
>
> There's no reason an interim version can't be done before a proper Unicode
version is available, if it ever is.
stevo
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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1d. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 8:08 am ((PST))
I just copied as closely as I could what Bliss had for "man" and
"woman" in his book. He used the "Mars" and "Venus" glyphs for "male"
and "female".
--gary
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 5:36 AM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've always thought of Λ and V as being male and female, so the Δ is only
> going to confuse me :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
>
>
>
> On 5 Feb 2013, at 18:51, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Now that Unicode is available to the world, we have a large range of
>> interesting typographic squiggles that can be used in a conlang
>> orthography. So what if various Unicode squiggles were chosen to
>> represent the symbols in Blissymbolics? Then we'd have a type-able
>> version of Bliss that might look something like this (to pick a few
>> random arbitrary examples from the first few pages of the Bliss book.)
>>
>> Π (door)
>>> Π (entrance)
>> Π> (exit)
>> !Π> (emergency exit)
>> ─ (earth)
>> O (sun)
>> Ω (day)
>> Ω5 (Thursday)
>> Ҁ (knife, cut)
>> /Ҁ (plow (earth knife))
>> Ш (grain)
>> ҀШ (harvest)
>> Λ (man)
>> Δ (woman)
>> A (person)
>> A1 (I, me)
>> A2 (you)
>> Î (pen, write)
>> Ξ (letter, note, memo)
>>> (to, toward, in the dirction of)
>>
>> A1 Î Ξ > A2 (I write letter to you)
>>
>> ≈ (water)
>> Ж (medicine)
>> ЖΛ (doctor)
>> <o> (eye, see, look)
>>
>> Just a random brain dump in search of feedback.
>>
>> --gary
Messages in this topic (12)
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1e. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 11:06 am ((PST))
But there are Mars and Venus/(fe)male signs in Unicode:
U+2640 FEMALE SIGN
UTF-8: e2 99 80 UTF-16BE: 2640 Decimal: ♀
♀
Category: So (Symbol, Other)
Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
U+2642 MALE SIGN
UTF-8: e2 99 82 UTF-16BE: 2642 Decimal: ♂
♂
Category: So (Symbol, Other)
Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
There are signs for various minority persuasions as well.
On 2013-02-06 17:08, Gary Shannon wrote:
> I just copied as closely as I could what Bliss had for "man" and
> "woman" in his book. He used the "Mars" and "Venus" glyphs for "male"
> and "female".
>
> --gary
>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 5:36 AM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I've always thought of Λ and V as being male and female, so the Δ is only
>> going to confuse me :)
>>
>> Sam Stutter
>> [email protected]
>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5 Feb 2013, at 18:51, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Now that Unicode is available to the world, we have a large range of
>>> interesting typographic squiggles that can be used in a conlang
>>> orthography. So what if various Unicode squiggles were chosen to
>>> represent the symbols in Blissymbolics? Then we'd have a type-able
>>> version of Bliss that might look something like this (to pick a few
>>> random arbitrary examples from the first few pages of the Bliss book.)
>>>
>>> Π (door)
>>>> Π (entrance)
>>> Π> (exit)
>>> !Π> (emergency exit)
>>> ─ (earth)
>>> O (sun)
>>> Ω (day)
>>> Ω5 (Thursday)
>>> Ҁ (knife, cut)
>>> /Ҁ (plow (earth knife))
>>> Ш (grain)
>>> ҀШ (harvest)
>>> Λ (man)
>>> Δ (woman)
>>> A (person)
>>> A1 (I, me)
>>> A2 (you)
>>> Î (pen, write)
>>> Ξ (letter, note, memo)
>>>> (to, toward, in the dirction of)
>>>
>>> A1 Î Ξ > A2 (I write letter to you)
>>>
>>> ≈ (water)
>>> Ж (medicine)
>>> ЖΛ (doctor)
>>> <o> (eye, see, look)
>>>
>>> Just a random brain dump in search of feedback.
>>>
>>> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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1f. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 11:10 am ((PST))
On 6 Feb 2013, at 09:58, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>> No, we're going to do it properly. A first draft was made in 1998 and there
>> should be further work done soon.
>
> There's no reason an interim version can't be done before a proper Unicode
> version is available, if it ever is.
Then use the 1998 catalogue in the Private Use Area. Trying to map everything
to existing Unicode characters seems to me to be a waste of time.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (12)
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1g. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:20 pm ((PST))
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
---snip---
>
> Then use the 1998 catalogue in the Private Use Area. Trying to map everything
> to existing Unicode characters seems to me to be a waste of time.
>
Probably so. On the other hand, we have so many perfectly good
natlangs that inventing a new conlang seems like a waste of time too.
;-)
--gary
Messages in this topic (12)
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1h. Re: Typographic Bliss
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 12:31 pm ((PST))
Heh. That was my thought too. "Waste time! Perish the thought! I have
conlangs to construct!"
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Michael Everson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> ---snip---
> >
> > Then use the 1998 catalogue in the Private Use Area. Trying to map
> everything to existing Unicode characters seems to me to be a waste of time.
> >
>
> Probably so. On the other hand, we have so many perfectly good
> natlangs that inventing a new conlang seems like a waste of time too.
> ;-)
>
> --gary
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. OT: Endangered Language research at US Universities
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 5:21 pm ((PST))
I'm currently doing research for a project involving endangered languages,
and one of the things I've been asked to research is universities in the US
that have strong fieldwork programs. Does anyone know of some good places
I can look?
I'm also exploring funding sources for a potential grant proposal on
documenting endangered languages, as well as software to assist in
documentation (heh! We all know how hard it is to find a good dictionary
database :P ).
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: OT: Endangered Language research at US Universities
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 6:39 pm ((PST))
On 6 February 2013 18:21, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm currently doing research for a project involving endangered languages,
> and one of the things I've been asked to research is universities in the US
> that have strong fieldwork programs. Does anyone know of some good places
> I can look?
>
> I'm also exploring funding sources for a potential grant proposal on
> documenting endangered languages, as well as software to assist in
> documentation (heh! We all know how hard it is to find a good dictionary
> database :P ).
Well, I don't know about good research universities, but your second
paragraph reminded me of a bit of good news. I think I mentioned
several months ago that I was applying for a grant to work on
lexicography software, and I just found out Monday that I actually got
the grant!
So, now I'm stuck with actually having to do the work.... It's a
little intimidating.
And then just this afternoon my boss told me he'd found this:
http://tshwanedje.com/tshwanelex/
Which kind of invalidates one of the claims in my grant proposal (that
something pretty much precisely like that doesn't exist), and leads me
to pondering why the heck I didn't know about it 6 months ago. It is
rather pricey, though, so there's certainly room for some
free-and-open-source systems to be developed in the same space.
I've also had several meetings with my boss recently on the subject of
developing a dictionary database to assist in all kinds of
pedagogically-oriented NLP tools, and have been simultaneously really
excited about the project and trying to convince him that its way more
work than we have the time or the payroll money for.
-l.
Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: vowels: five to three?
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 7:02 pm ((PST))
If you were to do this, might I suggest contact with a group of Arabic or
Berber speakers - pre-Norman Sicily is an excellent starting point.
Messages in this topic (13)
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4. A Language For The (Asteroid) Belt
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 7:05 pm ((PST))
When the waters rose, the small nations, those closest to the water, suffered
and vanished. Their people struggled to hold their identity against the Way of
Every Person and the Good Language which it imposed. The world government tired
of their complaints and offered them emigration to the other bodies of the
Solar System. The largest of these was Mars; the second largest was Ceres. The
Dal-Ikris (male Dal-Keres, female Dil-Kersa), the settlers of Ceres,
established Calvino Cities anchored above Dil-Bar, the interior ocean of Ceres,
and prospered. After a half-century, the Dal-Ikris colonized Vesta, whose
inhabitants became known as the Dal-Vosot (male Dal-Ivsat, female Dil-Vesta).
The language of the Dal-Ikris and the Dal-Vosot was not the same as that of
their ancestors, despite the efforts of their teachers and scholars. The
articles were kept, but the demonstrative combined with the definite article,
leaving a typical male-female-plural pattern “dal-dil-dal”. The difference
between “dal – singular” and “dal – plural” appeared in the distinct forms of
the noun, e.g., “dal-ktib” “the book”, “dal-kotba” “the books”. Diminution
devastated the regularity of the personal pronouns. The affirmative pronouns
became “ina, ti, u, i, nana, tom, uma” “1s, 2s, 3ms, 3fs, 1p, 2p, 3p”, while
the negative pronouns became “nish, tish, mush, mish, tomsh, umish”. The verb
also suffered simplification: the seven forms of the ancestral language reduced
to three: male-female-plural. An example is “to write”: past “kiteb, kitbet,
kitbu”, imperative “ikteb, iktbu”, non-past “yikteb, tikteb, yiktbu.”There were
also negative forms “ma ktibsh, ma kitbitsh, ma kitbush, ma tiktibsh, ma
tiktbush, ma yiktibsh, ma tiktibsh, ma yiktbush” and interrogative “shkiteb,
shkitbet, shkitbu, shyikteb, shtikteb, shyiktbu.” Simplification, however, was
not universal: the reduction of the verbal paradigm forces each combination
with the personal pronoun to indicate gender; the speaker of “ina ma ktibsh” “I
will not write” could only be a girl.
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Koha
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2013 7:49 pm ((PST))
Koha is a German-derived language spoken on the Earth of the "Eis-Lehre-Welt
(ELW)" cosm of the Polycosm, the equivalent of all the Pacific Ocean creoles on
OTL's Earth. It started as an slow-burning experiment in late 2011 to see how
much of German syntax could survive extreme simplification (most of it, as it
turns out).
There are two genders, male and female: definite, 'ka' and 'ki', indefinite,
'a' and 'ana'.
Plural number is indicated by a post-posed 'hi' (< fi < viel).
'ka haka' 'the father' 'ka haka hi' 'the fathers'
'ki moka' 'the mother' 'ki moka hi' 'the mothers'
Standard present tense word order is SVO
Ka haka he'a ki moka. The father sees the mother.
Past tense is SAOV
Ka haka apa ki moka he'a. The father saw the mother.
Future tense is SAOV
Ka haka vaka ki moka he'a. The father will see the mother.
Present interrogative is VSO
He'a ka haka ki moka?
Does the father see the mother?
Past interrogative is ASOV
Apa ka haka ki moka he'a?
Did the father see the mother?
Future interrogative is ASOV
Vaka ka haka ki moka he'a?
Will the father see the mother?
I'll skip the negatives for now.
Passive also uses 'ho'.
Ki moka apa ho ka haka he'a.
The personal pronouns are: mi, ku, a, hi, vi, o, hi hi.
The genitive construction is X ho Y:
ki koka ho ka mena. the daughter of the man.
Messages in this topic (1)
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