There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: George Corley
1.2. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: H. S. Teoh
1.3. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: H. S. Teoh
1.4. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: Matthew George
1.5. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: MorphemeAddict
1.6. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: H. S. Teoh
1.7. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: Leonardo Castro
2a. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: Demian Terentev
2b. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: MorphemeAddict
2c. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: A. da Mek
3.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
From: Henrik Theiling
4.1. Articles
From: A. da Mek
5a. USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
From: Leonardo Castro
5b. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
5c. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
From: Zach Wellstood
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:29 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:02 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > but I worry that if you include EVERY implication
> > of a sentence in the language, you end up with sentences with infinite
> > amounts of information -- which is just silly.
> >
>
> That's why we reason in categories and not in statements. Thank goodness.
>
> In what way? There is an incredibly efficient way for any language to
> > convey any concept it doesn't have a word for -- you just borrow a
> goddamn
> > word. You can borrow more than words -- you can borrow entire numeral
> > systems, huge segments of grammar.
> >
>
> It's not quite that simple. We don't have separate words for each idea we
> wish to convey. There are quite serious limits to the number of basic
> symbols available, always. We use simple representations for the stuff we
> want to talk about the most. If we went around coining new words every
> time we wanted to convey a particular concept, we'd run out - of memory, of
> time, of possible combinations within certain restrictions.
Yes, of course. I was just talking about what often happens. It obviously
is not a process you can apply at all times.
> Now, if you pull back from that, any language, without changing, can still
> > convey an infinite number of sentences. It may take quite a long time,
> but
> > you should be able to describe just about anything in any language.
> >
>
> Yeah, but there are pragmatic limits. If the necessary description becomes
> too long or too complex, people won't be able to deal with it. More to the
> point, a major purpose of language is to make it possible to manipulate
> concepts in a short form, without having to reference the concept itself
> all the time. Like pronouns for proper nouns, only for everything. We can
> think without words, but in a very limited way.
This is true. Once again, to what degree should we really think of the
practical limits such as time and speaker attention as part of the
linguistic system? I don't know if we have a really efficient way of
defining those limits.
> > I'm not sure how to translate 就 jiu4 itself. Here it is reinforcing the
> > sentence in the same way that "really" would in English.
> >
>
> If you ask that literally in English, it means something very different.
> Lots of people can be named 'George Corley'; a given person might be a
> member of that set. But *the* George Corley, he of the podcast, is a
> particular and noteworthy member of that set. It is also possible for a
> person to possess that identifier falsely, or in a limited sense - they're
> not truly 'George Corley'. How does Mandarin ask whether a person is a
> genuine George Corley, as opposed to a particular genuine George Corley?
>
I am not a native speaker of Mandarin, so all my translations will be
somewhat suspect, but I think the most natural ways are to use things like
就是 or 真的是. You can, of course say 播克柯乔治 "George Corley of podcast" (gloss:
podcast DE George Corley) or other similar things. Maybe a demonstrative
could replace "the" as in 那个柯乔治 "that CLASSIFIER George Corley".
> I've been trying to understand (along with everything else!) how ambiguity
> is used in language. As an instrumental factor, I think it may be very
> important, and possibly part of why ambiguity-banishing languages have
> never really caught on. I suspect that successful languages will have ways
> to state precisely or ambiguously on important matters, with less important
> ones having fewer options.
I'm not certain. To some extent, people who wholly banish ambiguity
actually go further than eliminating ambiguity -- they try to eliminate all
vagueness and say everything precisely. That way can lie only madness.
> This example is useful for another reason, though. I think that if someone
> > actually did come up to me and ask if I was "THE George Corley", I think
> I
> > would be somewhat tempted to punch them in the face.
>
>
> *shelves intention to ask whether you're the podcast guy*
> *backs away slowly*
>
I am the guy who does the Conlangery Podcast (or, as I style it, I'm the
"producer and moderating host"). I was being slightly hyperbolic about
punching people in the face. I was just imagining the situation of someone
asking me if I'm "THE George Corley" with wide eyes and breathless voice,
and it makes me quite uncomfortable. I'm certainly not a celebrity, and I
don't want to be a celebrity -- not THAT kind, anyway. I'm just a dude who
does things that other people like, but I wouldn't much like the idea of
someone putting me up on a pedestal.
So there, a simple sentence has invoked a whole lot of emotional baggage
and insecurity. Is all that part of the meaning or information content of
the sentence? I don't really think so. Most of that came from my
associating the sentence with an imaginary scenario. There may well be
other scenarios where the exact same sentence, even with the same prosodic
stress on _the_, might not bother me nearly as much.
Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:42 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 03:03:19PM -0500, Matthew George wrote:
[...]
> How would the following be translated into Russian? "You're George
> Corley? *The* George Corley?" For the life of me, I can see how you
> can manage without definite/indefinite indication, I just can't see
> why you'd want to.
[...]
Using my admittedly limited knowledge of Russian, I would word it like
this:
Ты - Джордж Корли? Сам Джордж Корли?
(Crudely) transliterated into English: You [are] George Corley? [The
very same / himself] George Corley?
Both my L1 (Hokkien) and L2 (Mandarin) *and* L3 (Bahasa Melayu) do not
have definite/indefinite indication, as well as my L5 (Russian), and
they seem to get along just fine. You're simply in another frame of mind
where this distinction just doesn't really factor in -- context makes
everything clear, as is the case with a lot of things in natlangs.
I can understand why an L1 English speaker would consider this
distinction essential though -- even though technically English is my
L3/L4, practically speaking it's more like my L1, and it irks me every
time I see an incorrect usage (or lack thereof!) of the article by an L2
learner of English. I'm like -- why do they just not *get* it?! You
have to use the article when you need to refer to something definite,
and you omit it otherwise -- what could be simpler or more obvious??
However, as my Classical Greek teacher once said -- just because Greek
has articles does not mean they are used in identical contexts as the
English article. In fact, they are used in a lot of places where it
doesn't make any sense in English -- in proper nouns like 峤� 危��魏��伪��畏��,
for example. So the whole deal with definite/indefinite in English may
not be as important as it may seem in the grand scheme of things.
T
--
Государство делает вид, что платит нам зарплату, а мы делаем вид, что работаем.
Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:54 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 04:29:48PM -0600, George Corley wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> > > I'm not sure how to translate 就 jiu4 itself. Here it is reinforcing the
> > > sentence in the same way that "really" would in English.
> > >
> >
> > If you ask that literally in English, it means something very different.
> > Lots of people can be named 'George Corley'; a given person might be a
> > member of that set. But *the* George Corley, he of the podcast, is a
> > particular and noteworthy member of that set. It is also possible for a
> > person to possess that identifier falsely, or in a limited sense - they're
> > not truly 'George Corley'. How does Mandarin ask whether a person is a
> > genuine George Corley, as opposed to a particular genuine George Corley?
> >
>
> I am not a native speaker of Mandarin, so all my translations will be
> somewhat suspect, but I think the most natural ways are to use things
> like 就是 or 真的是. You can, of course say 播克柯乔治 "George Corley
> of podcast" (gloss: podcast DE George Corley) or other similar things.
> Maybe a demonstrative could replace "the" as in 那个柯乔治 "that
> CLASSIFIER George Corley".
Your first translation with JIU is probably the most natural
translation. It also tends to be used to convey surprise --
paraphrasing, it's something like "really? that George Corley guy is
*you*?" -- although not sounding as incredulous as it is in English, of
course. In the indicative mood, it carries somewhat the feeling of "oh,
so *you're* that George Corley guy!".
But yeah, I've no idea how to translate jiu4 into English. It's a kind
of emphatic particle with certain nuances that are hard (if not
impossible) to fully capture in English. It's one of those things that
require a rewording of a sentence than mere substitution with a word or
phrase.
As for your other translations -- going by your glosses ('cos I'm
Chinese-illiterate, to my shame, despite being an L1/L2 speaker) -- that
is how one would disambiguate when context is not enough. Something
along the lines of, "oh, so you're George Corley? That guy from the
podcast?".
> > I've been trying to understand (along with everything else!) how
> > ambiguity is used in language. As an instrumental factor, I think
> > it may be very important, and possibly part of why
> > ambiguity-banishing languages have never really caught on. I
> > suspect that successful languages will have ways to state precisely
> > or ambiguously on important matters, with less important ones having
> > fewer options.
>
>
> I'm not certain. To some extent, people who wholly banish ambiguity
> actually go further than eliminating ambiguity -- they try to
> eliminate all vagueness and say everything precisely. That way can
> lie only madness.
[...]
That way lies AUXLANG. ;-)
*ducks the inevitable flames from the auxlang people*
T
--
It won't be covered in the book. The source code has to be useful for
something, after all. -- Larry Wall
Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "Matthew George" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:56 pm ((PST))
I suppose definite/indefinite gets a lot of use in English precisely
because it's simple and available. Plus, there are many situations where
it can't be omitted formally.
As for abolishing ambiguity - what do very precise conlangs do when the
speaker *wants* to convey ambiguity?
Matt G.
Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:58 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> I suppose definite/indefinite gets a lot of use in English precisely
> because it's simple and available. Plus, there are many situations where
> it can't be omitted formally.
>
> As for abolishing ambiguity - what do very precise conlangs do when the
> speaker *wants* to convey ambiguity?
>
At a guess: "Can't do it. Get over it."
stevo
>
> Matt G.
>
Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
1.6. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:15 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:58:02PM -0500, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I suppose definite/indefinite gets a lot of use in English precisely
> > because it's simple and available. Plus, there are many situations
> > where it can't be omitted formally.
> >
> > As for abolishing ambiguity - what do very precise conlangs do when
> > the speaker *wants* to convey ambiguity?
> >
>
> At a guess: "Can't do it. Get over it."
[...]
If the precise conlang can handle a union or superposition of multiple
meanings (presumeably in a precise way that indicates exactly what the
possibilities are), then this would be possible.
T
--
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
1.7. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 3:21 am ((PST))
2013/2/28 Matthew George <[email protected]>:
> I suppose definite/indefinite gets a lot of use in English precisely
> because it's simple and available. Plus, there are many situations where
> it can't be omitted formally.
I've considering using the same word for "it" and the definite article
in my conlang.
"The dog wants the bone." -> "It dog wants it bone."
The only problem I see is that "it" could refer to an undefined object,
"The dog gnaws a bone and don't want to drop it.".
But I interpret that once you present the undefined bone, you can
treat it as defined from them on.
> As for abolishing ambiguity - what do very precise conlangs do when the
> speaker *wants* to convey ambiguity?
>
> Matt G.
Messages in this topic (31)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "Demian Terentev" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:20 pm ((PST))
Well, the books in the list *are* originally physical books, but e.g.
�Egyptian Language� was published in 1958, so I think, the most viable
solution if you want a physical book would be downloading the pdfs and
printing them out.
2013/3/1 MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:54 AM, Demian Terentev <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > http://www.egyptology.ru/petrovskij.htm
> >
> > That's a good book online, but is there a good physical book available?
>
> stevo
>
> >
> > 2013/2/26 MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> >
> > > Does anyone know of a decent Middle Egyptian dictionary and grammar
> book
> > in
> > > Russian?
> > >
> > > stevo
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:03 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Demian Terentev <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, the books in the list *are* originally physical books, but e.g.
> “Egyptian Language” was published in 1958, so I think, the most viable
> solution if you want a physical book would be downloading the pdfs and
> printing them out.
>
> Okay, I was hoping to avoid that route, but I may have to do it anyway.
Thanks.
stevo
>
> 2013/3/1 MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
>
> > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:54 AM, Demian Terentev <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.egyptology.ru/petrovskij.htm
> > >
> > > That's a good book online, but is there a good physical book available?
> >
> > stevo
> >
> > >
> > > 2013/2/26 MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> > >
> > > > Does anyone know of a decent Middle Egyptian dictionary and grammar
> > book
> > > in
> > > > Russian?
> > > >
> > > > stevo
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 12:34 am ((PST))
>> I think, the most viable
>> solution if you want a physical book would be downloading the pdfs and
>> printing them out.
>
> Okay, I was hoping to avoid that route, but I may have to do it anyway.
I am not sure how it is in other parts of the universe and multiverse, but
here an average sized book costs about 30 Ermines*) and a Kindle costs about
250 Ermines; so for everyone who intends to read more than 8 books in his
life it is cheeper to use the e-book. In the landscape mode, even the .pdf
files are usually readable on the 800x600 px screen. I downloaded this
Egyptian grammar and although the letters are small, they can be read
clearly. (I bought Kindle when I wanted to read the Assyrinan dictionary
http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/cad/ and
http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/mad/
*) I am used to express prices in Ermines, because these coins keep their
inner value irrespective to the inflation. An Ermine is a coin which has 3
1/2 inches in diameter and 4 troy ounces in weight, made of a Camembert type
cheese. It received its name because of the similarity of its rind to the
winter fur of a stoat.
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [email protected]
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:05 pm ((PST))
The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at:
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
This is automatically posted once a month, copied directly from that page,
for the benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please
edit it at the link above.
**Henrik
==Where to get Conlang-L==
The official archives are at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html .
>From there, you can search the archives, get an RSS feed, manage your
subscription, etc.
It's also the ONLY place you can go to sign up and post things to the list.
A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
http://archives.conlang.info/ . [As of April 2009 this archive has ceased
mirroring new messages. Henrik Theiling knows about the problem and has said
he's planning to fix it but hasn't had time to do so yet.]
Conlang-L is also _mirrored_ as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to have
posts to the Yahoo group sent to the actual list. Do *not* subscribe to the
Yahoo group. It has no admin anymore. Go to
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html instead!
==A brief history of the list==
The list evolved from some informal email conversations among an early group
of language enthusiasts. The earliest mail mirror was run by John Ross out of
the BU physics department, and was up and running by 29 July 1991. It moved to
Denmark on 23 March, 1993.
The original note reads in part:
''By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to
diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of Copenhagen.
Send all submissions to CONLANG at diku dot dk. The address at buphy still
works, but it is just an alias for the new list.''
''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept) (Humour NOT marked)''
(Note that the submission address in that historical note '''NO LONGER
WORKS'''.)
Later, growing traffic and changes at the university necessitated a move. In
January�CFebruary of 1997 the list moved to its current home at Brown
University's LISTSERV server. David Durand made the move and actively
moderated the list from that point on.
Before the move, threads centered on debates on the relative merits of
[[auxlang]]s had become common on CONLANG; these were often incendiary and
irritated many listmembers. Accordingly, when the new CONLANG list was set up
at Brown, a sister list AUXLANG was set up to cater to participants of these
threads, and auxlang advocacy was banned from CONLANG. It still is.
(Dispassionate discussion of auxlangs is welcome.)
In ??? John Cowan took over actual moderation duties, as "Lord of the
Instrumentality".
Later the torch was passed to Henrik Theiling.
==List behaviour==
The CONLANG list rejects attachments.
===Posting limits===
As a traffic-limiting measure, if the list receives more than 99 messages in a
given day (in Brown's time zone), all subsequent messages will be
automatically held and not delivered until the admin unblocks the list.
Sometimes, during longer periods of high traffic, a further limit is imposed
restricting each person to five posts a day. ''This restriction is currently
in force.'' Messages beyond the daily limit are simply bounced, not held for
the next day.
Posters are encouraged to consolidate several shorter replies on a single
topic into a single message.
==Subject Topic Tags==
In the subject line of a post, you can mark the post with one of the following
tags. Tags are only recognised if a colon follows immediately: no other
decoration (e.g. brackets, an extra space) should be used. Any 'Re:' etc. is
irrelevant -- the software skips it.
Good tag syntax:
CHAT: Is the world really round?
Bad tag syntax:
[CHAT]: Is the world really round?
These are the official tags the listserv software can be instructed to
filter automatically. There are currently exactly four:
* OT: off-topic stuff
* CHAT: off-topic stuff of the conversational sort
* USAGE: natural language usage (all of the YAEPT and similar should use this)
* THEORY: linguistic theory discussions
Only the above tags are official and configured for filtering. However, most
advanced mail clients can be set to have extra filters, such as for the
following unofficial tags:
* OFFLIST: not actually seen on-list, this tag is added to make explicitly
clear that you are taking a subject offlist (i.e. you're emailing someone
directly about it)
The following are explicitly not included in the list of filterable tags:
* META: threads about CONLANG-L itself
* TECH: technical issues (e.g. email programs, list-related technical
problems, etc)
Finally, there are two meta-tags:
* [CONLANG]: This should not be actually added when starting a new subject;
you can make the listserv prepend it automatically to all email (so that you
can set your mail client to filter all list traffic)
* "was": used to change the subject, or more commonly, to indicate that the
subject of a thread changed a while ago and you're no longer pretending it's
about the original topic
Example:
JAMA says flat earth leads to flat [@] (was CHAT: Is the world really round?)
Note that tags ARE included after the "was", but "Re:" is NOT, nor is
[CONLANG].
==Acronyms==
List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:
* AFMCL - "As for my conlang.."
** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"
* ANADEW - "A natlang's already dunnit, except worse"
* ANADEWism - Something you thought was unique, but ANADEW
* IML - "in my 'lect" (dialect or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect
idiolect], depending on context)
* LCC - the [http://conference.conlang.org Language Creation Conference]
* LCS - the [http://conlang.org Language Creation Society]
* NCNC - "No cross, no crown". In the context of the list, "don't discuss
religion or politics"
([http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2006/05/no-cross-no-crown.html not its
more general meaning]).
* NLF2DWS or NLWS - Non-linear [fully 2-dimensional] writing system
* YAEPT (the original acronym) - Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread
** YADPT ... Dutch Pronunciation ...
** YAGPT ... German Pronunciation ...
** YAEGT ... English Grammar ...
** YAEUT ... English Usage ...
** general pattern: YA(Language)(Topic)T
Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
[http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:] or
[http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Acronym Finder].
==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==
>From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
[http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here]. See also [[Conlang
terminology]].
con__
* constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
conculture, ...
__lang
* a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang, artlang,
auxlang, ...
[[artlang]]
# A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From art(istic) +
lang(uage)]
# (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]
[[auxlang]]
* A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]
concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]
* Adjective form of "conculture".
[[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]
* A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also "conworld".
[[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]
# n. A constructed language
# v. To construct a language
[[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L
* A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
operated by Henrik Theiling
[[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]
* A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
"conculture".
[[engelang]] /��end��l忙��/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
* A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is objectively
testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different from claiming
that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the Lojban/Loglan
roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the speakers of the
(numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion to the number of
speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this criterion is met; it is
something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
etabnannery /ra��mn忙n��晒i/ (rare)
* The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
failing at even being that. [From Et谩��bnann(i), a conlang by Tristan McLeay,
which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]
maggelity /m����g��l瑟ti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by Christophe
Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]
# The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)
# The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)
Maggel's Paradox (rare)
* Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)
[[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]
# A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
opposed to a conlang.
ObConlang (or ObCL)
* Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.
* From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).
[[translation relay]]
* A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages - and
then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.
==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==
[[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list. X-SAMPA
is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.
* [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart
* [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]
==Related lists==
The Auxlang list, mentioned above, is dedicated to international auxiliary
languages. Its archives and subscription interface are at
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/auxlang.html .
The list [email protected] is dedicated to the planning and
conducting of [[conlang relay]]s, q.v.
==Resources==
* [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]
* [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
"biographies"
* [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ
* [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more writing
systems than you thought could exist
{{Conlangculture}}
[[Category:Terminology]]
Messages in this topic (32)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Articles
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 5:21 am ((PST))
> For the life of me, I can see how you can
> manage without definite/indefinite indication, I just can't see why you'd
> want to.
Even languages which do not have articles do have articles, only that those
articles are not articles, because they are not obligatory and so they are
mere pronouns.
In a language with marked cases, the word order need not express which word
is in the nominative case and which is in the accusative case, and so it may
express whether the thing was already mentioned or not.
Jaqtil kohinum kalba(m). = Jaqtil kalbam kohinu(m). "A priest killed a dog."
Kohin(um) jaqtil kalba(m). = Jaqtil falu kohinum kalba(m). = Jaqtil kalbam
falu kohinu(m). "The priest killed a dog."
Kalbam jaqtil kohinu(m). = Jaqtil kohinum fala kalbu(m). = Jaqtil fala
kalbum kohinu(m). "A priest killed the dog."
Kohinum kalbam jaqtil. = Kalbam kohin jaqtil. = Jaqtil falu kohinum fala
kalbu(m). = Jaqtil fala kalbum falu kohinu(m). "The priest killed the dog."
Sentence final mimation is optional.
The construct state is always without any mimation.
Before the verb, all nouns are definite by default. After the verb,
definiteness is expressed by the pronoun /falum/ in construct state followed
by the noun in the appositive case. (Note: Do not confuse the apposition
with the adposition (which is a cover term for prepositions and
postpositions).) The original case of the noun is marked on the pronoun. The
appositive case is homonyme with nominative, but is always placed after a
noun in a construct state.
If the subject is immediately before the verb, then the nominative ending
/-um/ is optional.
If the object is immediately after the verb, then the accusative ending
/-am/ is optional.
But the mimation-less case endings of the construct state are always
obligatory.
The case ending is obligatory if the stem ends on a consonant cluster; that
is, it is allowed only either if it has a gender marker (feminine /-at/ or
neuter /-ot/ or diminutive /-it/) or if it is an abstract deverbal noun
(qatolum "killing", akolum "eating", kaborum "greatness") or active
participle (qotilum "a-killing", nogirum "a-announcing; herald", kohinum
"priest").
Kohin(um) jaqtil kalbit((a)m). "The priest killed a puppy." but
Kohin(um) jaqtil kalba(m). "The priest killed a dog."
Kalbum ja'kil bas^ra(m). "The dog ate a meat."
Under similar conditions, the genitive ending can be dropped.
Kalbu kohin(im) ja'kil bas^ra(m). "The dog of the priest ate a meat.
So you can see that an author has many possibilities how to change the word
order and to drop or add optional endings as it is more suitable for the
sake of the rhyme and rhythm in poesy and texts of songs.
Messages in this topic (192)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 5:25 am ((PST))
Hi!
Do some foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese? Is it somewhat
funny to natives?
I have learnt that my name (Leonardo) is 莱昂纳多 in Chinese. Does it
sound like "someone who admits being very proud of weed"?
莱 - weed
昂 - proud
纳 - admit
多 - very
Naturally, the word order is not syntactically significant, but do
these type of association occur?
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 5:31 am ((PST))
Hi Leonardo,
I always wished to know if there is a straightforward way to
transliterate people's name into hanzi.
But two questions come to my mind:
1. How can a toneless syllable (or even more than just one syllable in
a language without tones) be transcripted into a language with four
distinct tones? Which tone should be used?
2. Even if one knows which tone to use. Which of the several homonyms
must be used?
Inté!
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Do some foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese? Is it somewhat
> funny to natives?
>
> I have learnt that my name (Leonardo) is 莱昂纳多 in Chinese. Does it
> sound like "someone who admits being very proud of weed"?
>
> 莱 - weed
> 昂 - proud
> 纳 - admit
> 多 - very
>
> Naturally, the word order is not syntactically significant, but do
> these type of association occur?
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 5:42 am ((PST))
liyaá' ��铆'!
I'm not a native, and can't speak to the actual question, but fun fact: the
Chinese name for the restaurant, Subway is 赛百味 sai4bai3wei4, which sounds
similar to Subway and means something close to "competing 100 flavors." Not
sure if that's the *best* translation of 赛 sai4, but it shows up in other
words meaning "competition."
So while it's probably easy to create a name that does sound bizarre, it's
likely also easy to coerce it into a different meaning, since English is
toneless, this gives Chinese another dimension to work with. It looks like
your name is found in dictionaries, though, so maybe that would remove any
weird associations with it?
Zach
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Do some foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese? Is it somewhat
> funny to natives?
>
> I have learnt that my name (Leonardo) is 莱昂纳多 in Chinese. Does it
> sound like "someone who admits being very proud of weed"?
>
> 莱 - weed
> 昂 - proud
> 纳 - admit
> 多 - very
>
> Naturally, the word order is not syntactically significant, but do
> these type of association occur?
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
--
raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
Messages in this topic (3)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
