There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
From: Leonardo Castro
1b. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
From: H. S. Teoh
1c. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
From: H. S. Teoh
2.1. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: Alex Fink
2.2. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: Roman Rausch
2.3. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: George Corley
2.4. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: And Rosta
2.5. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: MorphemeAddict
2.6. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: George Corley
3.1. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: taliesin the storyteller
4a. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: George Corley
4b. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: taliesin the storyteller
4c. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: George Corley
4d. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: taliesin the storyteller
5a. Re: Numeral Systems
From: Alex Fink
Messages
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1a. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 5:47 am ((PST))
2013/3/1 Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <[email protected]>:
> Hi Leonardo,
Hi, Hugo! (Another Castro!)
[...]
> 1. How can a toneless syllable (or even more than just one syllable in
> a language without tones) be transcripted into a language with four
> distinct tones? Which tone should be used?
I don't really know it, but I have the impression that Chinese people
perceive other languages' features such as stress and length as tones.
I think this because I know a Chinese guy who speak Portuguese putting
tones on the syllables.
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 8:21 am ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 10:24:51AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Do some foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese? Is it somewhat
> funny to natives?
>
> I have learnt that my name (Leonardo) is è±æçº³å¤ in Chinese. Does it
> sound like "someone who admits being very proud of weed"?
>
> è± - weed
> æ - proud
> 纳 - admit
> å¤ - very
>
> Naturally, the word order is not syntactically significant, but do
> these type of association occur?
[...]
First of all, due to the fact that Chinese has tone distinction but most
other languages (like English) don't, means that when transliterating
names we get a lot of leeway in what characters can be used. Second of
all, due to the vast difference in syllabic structure from, say,
English, some degree of mangling is possible or even necessary, which
gives even more leeway in how a name can be translated.
All of which means that what somebody claims is the Chinese equivalent
of your name, is merely one of a large number of possibilities. So be
careful who is transliterating your name, as someone with not the best
of intentions may deliberately mangle it in embarrassing ways. And yes,
some names do sound very funny, especially if it was not properly chosen
to avoid the wrong connotations.
As to your third question: word order *is* significant in names, though
not as strict as it would be outside of the scope of names. But word
associations certainly do happen, and very frequently. Choosing the
right name for children is a big deal -- parents and family members can
have long arguments over which exact character should be chosen, things
like connotation, nuance, overall sound, etc., are all important
considerations. Of course, this depends on the family -- mine, for
example, doesn't really care much about these sort of things, but many
Chinese families place heavy emphasis on it.
Which boils down to: when transliterating a foreigner's name, or rather,
when *choosing* a suitable series of characters to represent a
foreigner's name, one has to consider not only the closeness in
pronunciation to the original and how well the chosen characters fit
into overall Chinese phonotactics, but also the meaning, express and
implied, of the chosen characters. The conventional way is to pick
something that has some kind of positive implication, or jives with that
person's perceived character, etc..
Which means that you'll get a different name depending on who you ask,
and if you ask enough people, you'll get to choose what you'd like your
name to be. :-)
Finally, there is also the matter of precedent -- if you happen to have
a common name that has been previously translated/transliterated, you're
likely to get assigned that previous translation instead of going
through the foregoing painstaking process of selection.
T
--
Give me some fresh salted fish, please.
Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: USAGE: Do foreign names sound like phrases in Chinese?
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 8:35 am ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 01, 2013 at 10:31:20AM -0300, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro wrote:
> Hi Leonardo,
>
> I always wished to know if there is a straightforward way to
> transliterate people's name into hanzi.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: it depends. :-P
Well, there are a few different ways one could go about it: you could
take the pragmatic route of finding the closest sounds that match the
original name, or you could take more liberty in finding a name that has
some kind of meaning (implied or express) related to the original name
or to the person. In both cases, there is usually more than one way to
do it, as I said in my other post, so the process is far from
straightforward. On the other hand, any close-enough-sounding sequence
of characters would probably be acceptable to a native, as foreign names
are usually immediately recognized as such from their distinctiveness
from Chinese names.
> But two questions come to my mind:
> 1. How can a toneless syllable (or even more than just one syllable in
> a language without tones) be transcripted into a language with four
> distinct tones? Which tone should be used?
You get to choose. :)
> 2. Even if one knows which tone to use. Which of the several homonyms
> must be used?
[...]
You get to choose as well. :)
Which is why, as I said in my other reply, you have to be wary of who is
transliterating your name. You might get a funny name, or an
embarrassing one, if you're not careful.
Not to mention, due to the rigid phonetic structure of Chinese
syllables, some mangling of the original is bound to occur, which also
adds some leeway into what sequence of characters may be chosen. One
could, for example, represent consonant clusters as multiple syllables,
or drop one or more consonants, or omit entire syllables (long names
with unstressed endings are often prone to this). When transliterating
into Mandarin, sounds like /k/ get shifted into /ts/ or /tS/, etc..
Sometimes a different sound can be chosen based on idiolect.
It's a complicated and messy process, to say the least, and somewhat
dependent on who you ask and where that person came from.
T
--
Computers shouldn't beep through the keyhole.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2.1. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 7:50 am ((PST))
On Fri, 1 Mar 2013 08:21:06 -0300, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
wrote:
>2013/2/28 Matthew George <[email protected]>:
>> I suppose definite/indefinite gets a lot of use in English precisely
>> because it's simple and available. Plus, there are many situations where
>> it can't be omitted formally.
>
>I've considering using the same word for "it" and the definite article
>in my conlang.
>
>"The dog wants the bone." -> "It dog wants it bone."
>
>The only problem I see is that "it" could refer to an undefined object,
>
>"The dog gnaws a bone and don't want to drop it.".
That's completely the opposite of a problem, as I see it! It's a natural
unification of the functions: "it" just means 'that thing we're talking about,
or that thing that's salient'; if you want to give the hearer a bit more of a
hint, supply a noun after "it"; if not, fine. I mean, pronouns and articles
both tend to derive from demonstratives, which at least for English-speakers
it's less surprising that take identical forms whether modifying a noun or
standing alone. "My dog wants that (bone)."
And there are ANADEWs: e.g. nonstandard German does this, doesn't it?
Do you select "it" by contrast to other gender forms of the pronouns? The most
natural thing to do would be to make gender behave the same way in pronoun and
article function, IMO.
Alex
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.2. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 7:56 am ((PST))
>Using my admittedly limited knowledge of Russian, I would word it like this:
>Ð¢Ñ - ÐжоÑдж ÐоÑли? Сам ÐжоÑдж ÐоÑли?
>(Crudely) transliterated into English: You [are] George Corley? [The
>very same / himself] George Corley?
As a native speaker I'd say _ÐÑ - ÐжоÑдж ÐоÑли? Ð¢Ð¾Ñ ÑамÑй
ÐжоÑдж ÐоÑли?_. The construction _ÑÐ¾Ñ ÑамÑй_ 'that very' +
name is somewhat of a fixed one for the specific situation of confirming the
names of famous people - this seems to be a context which occurs frequently
enough to justify it.
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.3. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 9:17 am ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> That's completely the opposite of a problem, as I see it! It's a natural
> unification of the functions: "it" just means 'that thing we're talking
> about, or that thing that's salient'; if you want to give the hearer a bit
> more of a hint, supply a noun after "it"; if not, fine. I mean, pronouns
> and articles both tend to derive from demonstratives, which at least for
> English-speakers it's less surprising that take identical forms whether
> modifying a noun or standing alone. "My dog wants that (bone)."
> And there are ANADEWs: e.g. nonstandard German does this, doesn't it?
>
In Spanish, the masculine definite article is identical to the nominative
of the masculine pronoun (though in writing, the pronoun is spelled with an
acute accent to disambiguate). Also, I believe the pronominal forms _lo_
and _la_ (object forms of some kind -- often cliticised to the verb) are
also used as a kind of article, though I'm not sure what to call it.
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.4. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 1:05 pm ((PST))
Alex Fink, On 01/03/2013 15:50:
> On Fri, 1 Mar 2013 08:21:06 -0300, Leonardo Castro<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> 2013/2/28 Matthew George<[email protected]>:
>>> I suppose definite/indefinite gets a lot of use in English precisely
>>> because it's simple and available. Plus, there are many situations where
>>> it can't be omitted formally.
>>
>> I've considering using the same word for "it" and the definite article
>> in my conlang.
>>
>> "The dog wants the bone." -> "It dog wants it bone."
>>
>> The only problem I see is that "it" could refer to an undefined object,
>>
>> "The dog gnaws a bone and don't want to drop it.".
>
> That's completely the opposite of a problem, as I see it! It's a natural
> unification of the functions: "it" just means 'that thing we're talking
> about, or that thing that's salient'; if you want to give the hearer a bit
> more of a hint, supply a noun after "it"; if not, fine. I mean, pronouns and
> articles both tend to derive from demonstratives, which at least for
> English-speakers it's less surprising that take identical forms whether
> modifying a noun or standing alone. "My dog wants that (bone)."
> And there are ANADEWs: e.g. nonstandard German does this, doesn't it?
English too, IMO. Synchronically, [It] and [They] have, when transitive,
(i) a truncated form of {it} in most trad Northern English dialects,(usu spelt
<t'>)
(ii) a truncated form of {they} or {them} in some other dialects, (invariant
[D@])
(iii) a phonologically-conditioned alternation between a form of {it} and a
form of {they/them} in some trad SW Northern English dialects, (spelt <t'> and
<th'>)
(iv) a form of {they} in most other dialects, ([D']/[Di])
I had better qualify this by noting that my eximious opinions do not represent
the scholarly consensus.
--And.
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.5. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 2:19 pm ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 12:17 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > That's completely the opposite of a problem, as I see it! It's a natural
> > unification of the functions: "it" just means 'that thing we're talking
> > about, or that thing that's salient'; if you want to give the hearer a
> bit
> > more of a hint, supply a noun after "it"; if not, fine. I mean, pronouns
> > and articles both tend to derive from demonstratives, which at least for
> > English-speakers it's less surprising that take identical forms whether
> > modifying a noun or standing alone. "My dog wants that (bone)."
> > And there are ANADEWs: e.g. nonstandard German does this, doesn't it?
> >
>
> In Spanish, the masculine definite article is identical to the nominative
> of the masculine pronoun (though in writing, the pronoun is spelled with an
> acute accent to disambiguate).
Only in the singular: el libro (the book) vs. él (he). In the plural it's
"los libros" (the books) vs. ellos (they [m or mixed]).
stevo
Also, I believe the pronominal forms _lo_
> and _la_ (object forms of some kind -- often cliticised to the verb) are
> also used as a kind of article, though I'm not sure what to call it.
>
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.6. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 2:40 pm ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 4:16 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 12:17 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In Spanish, the masculine definite article is identical to the nominative
> > of the masculine pronoun (though in writing, the pronoun is spelled with
> an
> > acute accent to disambiguate).
>
>
> Only in the singular: el libro (the book) vs. él (he). In the plural it's
> "los libros" (the books) vs. ellos (they [m or mixed]).
That's true (though I would say that ellos is simply masculine, and that
mixed-gender groups default to masculine agreement). It is still valid to
say that the masculine _singular_ forms are phonologically identical. It
is true that lo also functions as both a pronoun and an article (
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lo#Spanish), as does la (
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/la#Spanish).
Messages in this topic (37)
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3.1. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 9:44 am ((PST))
On 02/27/2013 08:41 AM, R A Brown wrote:
> What I'd find more interesting would be the programming
> language analog of Maggel :)
Malbolge?
t.
Messages in this topic (33)
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4a. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 9:56 am ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 2:34 AM, A. da Mek <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think, the most viable
>>> solution if you want a physical book would be downloading the pdfs and
>>> printing them out.
>>>
>>
>> Okay, I was hoping to avoid that route, but I may have to do it anyway.
>>
>
> I am not sure how it is in other parts of the universe and multiverse, but
> here an average sized book costs about 30 Ermines*) and a Kindle costs
> about 250 Ermines; so for everyone who intends to read more than 8 books in
> his life it is cheeper to use the e-book. In the landscape mode, even the
> .pdf files are usually readable on the 800x600 px screen. I downloaded this
> Egyptian grammar and although the letters are small, they can be read
> clearly. (I bought Kindle when I wanted to read the Assyrinan dictionary
> http://oi.uchicago.edu/**research/pubs/catalog/cad/<http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/cad/>and
> http://oi.uchicago.edu/**research/pubs/catalog/mad/<http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/mad/>
>
> *) I am used to express prices in Ermines, because these coins keep their
> inner value irrespective to the inflation. An Ermine is a coin which has 3
> 1/2 inches in diameter and 4 troy ounces in weight, made of a Camembert
> type cheese. It received its name because of the similarity of its rind to
> the winter fur of a stoat.
How much do the ebooks cost. Sadly, the facts of publishing right now are
such that publishers vary in how they price ebooks. Some of them even
price the ebook higher than the paperback, even though the ebook is
probably cheaper to produce.
Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 12:53 pm ((PST))
On 03/01/2013 06:56 PM, George Corley wrote:
> How much do the ebooks cost. Sadly, the facts of publishing right now are
> such that publishers vary in how they price ebooks. Some of them even
> price the ebook higher than the paperback, even though the ebook is
> probably cheaper to produce.
I get the privilege of paying VAT on ebooks but not on paper books. So
most ebooks are more expensive than most hardcovers. But then again,
even an ebook only costs one fourth of what a paperbook bought locally
written in my L1 does... I can't afford to read in my first language!
<insert standard foam-flecked raging mega-rant about Norwegian
publishers and "culture"-politicians>
There: saved zillions of electrons.
t.
Messages in this topic (10)
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4c. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 1:19 pm ((PST))
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 2:53 PM, taliesin the storyteller <
[email protected]> wrote:
> On 03/01/2013 06:56 PM, George Corley wrote:
>
>> How much do the ebooks cost. Sadly, the facts of publishing right now are
>> such that publishers vary in how they price ebooks. Some of them even
>> price the ebook higher than the paperback, even though the ebook is
>> probably cheaper to produce.
>>
>
> I get the privilege of paying VAT on ebooks but not on paper books. So
> most ebooks are more expensive than most hardcovers. But then again, even
> an ebook only costs one fourth of what a paperbook bought locally written
> in my L1 does... I can't afford to read in my first language!
>
> <insert standard foam-flecked raging mega-rant about Norwegian publishers
> and "culture"-politicians>
>
> There: saved zillions of electrons.
That's kind of messed up. Does Norway have a big printing lobby or what?
Messages in this topic (10)
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4d. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 2:15 pm ((PST))
On 03/01/2013 10:19 PM, George Corley wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 2:53 PM, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
>> On 03/01/2013 06:56 PM, George Corley wrote:
>>
>>> How much do the ebooks cost. Sadly, the facts of publishing right now are
>>> such that publishers vary in how they price ebooks. Some of them even
>>> price the ebook higher than the paperback, even though the ebook is
>>> probably cheaper to produce.
>>
>> I get the privilege of paying VAT on ebooks but not on paper books. So
>> most ebooks are more expensive than most hardcovers. But then again, even
>> an ebook only costs one fourth of what a paperbook bought locally written
>> in my L1 does... I can't afford to read in my first language!
>
> That's kind of messed up. Does Norway have a big printing lobby or what?
The publishers own the book clubs, the media (some tv-channels, some
newspapers), the printers and the book stores. And the politicians :)
They're currently pushing for a law that says they get to set and freeze
book prices, making law out of what have been custom.
t.
Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: Numeral Systems
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2013 2:06 pm ((PST))
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 16:51:16 +0000, Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have independenty decided to exempt the 11 through 19, and have done so
>based on what seemed to me to be a very good reason. The only problem is that
>reason was thought of very early in the morning when my son (2 months old)
>woke me up needing to eat so I didn't write it down and can't remember it at
>the moment, unfortunately.
>
>However, if I can't recall the reason I will probably reinstate them.
It could've been that you were thinking rather of a system more like the one I
had in mind when I glossed 23 as "3 in the 2nd ennead": the second digit from
the right isn't a number of nines you add to the rightmost digit, it's names a
group of nine numbers within which the rightmost digit names the position. So
you'd count
1st ennead: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
2nd ennead: 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
3rd ennead: 31 32 ...
... 88 89
9th ennead: 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99
10th ennead: 211 212 ...
and 1 would be redundant and thus not appear as an initial digit, the same way
that 0 is in an additive base notation.
Alex
>------Original Message------
>From: Alex Fink
>Sender: Conlang
>To: Conlang
>ReplyTo: Conlang
>Subject: Re: Numeral Systems
>Sent: Jan 7, 2012 21:40
>
>On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 03:15:59 +0000, Brian <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Sure, one might expect to see "23" and imagine a value of "21" but my
>decision to neglect the "0" is based on the lack of the concept of
>"nothing". I'm honestly not sure how well this whole idea will work out for
>me but I'll find out.
>
>But so here is how I'd count in base 9 with the digits 1 to 9, no zero:
>
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
> 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
> 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
> 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39
> 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
> 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59
> 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69
> 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79
> 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89
> 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99
>111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119
>121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 ...
>
>You're skipping the 11 through 19 row, and you don't _have_ to do this based
>solely on not having a zero. (Of course you might still independently
>choose to.)
>
>Alex
Messages in this topic (25)
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