There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: THEORY: Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
From: Carsten Becker
1b. Re: THEORY: Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
1c. Re: THEORY: Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
From: G. van der Vegt
2a. Re: OT question for Portuguese speaker(s)
From: Leonardo Castro
3.1. Re: Tonogenesis
From: Eric Christopherson
3.2. Re: Tonogenesis
From: Roger Mills
4a. Re: OT: Kindles (was: Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in
From: Leonardo Castro
5a. Re: Boontling 'language'
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: Boontling 'language'
From: Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
6. Re: Kindles (was: Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russ
From: A. da Mek
7. Fiat Lingua Article: Madeline Palmer's Draconic
From: David Peterson
Messages
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1a. Re: THEORY: Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 3, 2013 2:11 pm ((PST))
On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 14:59:29 -0300, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
wrote:
>BTW, in regard to the claim that "adults will never speak a second
>language as a native", it's interesting to consider that many natives
>will never speak "as natives" either. I mean, some people from a
>language dialectal zone just _can't_ speak like the natives of other
>places.
Just an anecdote to share apropos of this – the state of Baden-Württemberg even
made an advertisement slogan from that insight: "Wir können alles, außer
Hochdeutsch" – "We can do anything, except speak Standard German" :)
Apart from that, without reading the article in the OP but only the replies in
this thread, I grew up in a monolingual German-speaking family and only got to
learn English from grade 5 on and French from grade 7 on, and took both up to
graduation in 13th grade. Both languages at first didn't come easily to me, and
my learning French didn't profit that much from learning English at the same
time but with a two-year's margin. At least I didn't mix up the two, as I heard
before is a problem for some people when trying to learn two languages at the
same time. And while I have gradually become rather proficient in English
mostly thanks to using it on the internet almost every day, my French sadly
lags behind quite a bit, mostly due to lack of exposure. However, I have never
seriously tried learning another language from scratch since graduating from
school in 2006, so I don't know if it would be that much easier even now that
I've attained fluency in English.
Carsten
Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: THEORY: Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 3, 2013 10:27 pm ((PST))
On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:11:03 -0500, Carsten Becker wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 14:59:29 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>
>> BTW, in regard to the claim that "adults will never speak a
>>second language as a native", it's interesting to consider that
>>many natives will never speak "as natives" either. I mean, some
>>people from a language dialectal zone just _can't_ speak like the
>>natives of other places.
>>>
> Just an anecdote to share apropos of this – the state of
>Baden-Württemberg even made an advertisement slogan from that
>insight: "Wir können alles, außer Hochdeutsch" – "We can do
>anything, except speak Standard German" :)
In the PISA tests (the OECD's Programme for International
Student Assessment), German-speaking Swiss children had higher
scores in language skills than children from Germany. Of course,
there can be lots of reasons for that, but one reason might be the
sort of bilingualism that comes from German-speaking Swiss being
able to consciously switch between the dialect and the standard
language. Sadly, politics drew opposite consequences from the
results: In order to improve children's language skills, dialect
should be avoided in schools. Teachers should use the standard
language exclusively, during brakes, when teaching "soft" subjects
such as sports or music, or even in kindergarten. However, this
increased use of the standard language has led to popular
resistance, so there won't be much change after all, and the
dialect will continue to be used naturally in schools.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (12)
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1c. Re: THEORY: Bilinguals Find It Easier to Learn a Third Language
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 4, 2013 1:58 am ((PST))
On 4 March 2013 07:27, J. 'Mach' Wust <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 17:11:03 -0500, Carsten Becker wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2013 14:59:29 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>>
>>> BTW, in regard to the claim that "adults will never speak a
>>>second language as a native", it's interesting to consider that
>>>many natives will never speak "as natives" either. I mean, some
>>>people from a language dialectal zone just _can't_ speak like the
>>>natives of other places.
>>>>
>> Just an anecdote to share apropos of this � the state of
>>Baden-W�rttemberg even made an advertisement slogan from that
>>insight: "Wir k�nnen alles, au�er Hochdeutsch" � "We can do
>>anything, except speak Standard German" :)
>
> In the PISA tests (the OECD's Programme for International
> Student Assessment), German-speaking Swiss children had higher
> scores in language skills than children from Germany. Of course,
> there can be lots of reasons for that, but one reason might be the
> sort of bilingualism that comes from German-speaking Swiss being
> able to consciously switch between the dialect and the standard
> language.
Interestingly, whenever Netherlanders and Flemish Belgians are pitted
against eachother in contests based on command of the Dutch language,
this seems to be echoed. The Flemish Belgians score much better on
average, and like the German-speaking Swiss, they have more immediate
exposure to a 'foreign' language in childhood.
Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. Re: OT question for Portuguese speaker(s)
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 3, 2013 5:58 pm ((PST))
2013/3/3 Daniel Germano <[email protected]>:
> Hi, Roger. We have the word 'lapela' in Portuguese, pretty similar to the
> English one.
Yes,
http://pt.wiktionary.org/wiki/lapela
but I must confess that I have only heard this word in the expression
"microfone de lapela".
> 2013/3/3 Roger Mills <[email protected]>
>
>> In connection with some of my other research-- Span. has _solapa_ 'lapel'
>> (i.e.edges of a jacket), borrowed into Tagalog. It occurs in some other
>> areas where the Spanish didn't have much influence, but the Port. did.
>> Does Port. have a similar word (perhaps old/archaic?)? My little
>> dictionary doesn't have anything....
>>
Messages in this topic (3)
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3.1. Re: Tonogenesis
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 3, 2013 6:05 pm ((PST))
On Mar 2, 2013, at 12:19 PM, Njenfalgar wrote:
> 2013/3/2 Patrick Dunn <[email protected]>
>
>> So I could have a general lenition rule for final consonants. Stops are
>> weakened to [?] and fricatives to [h] before another consonant, which
>> triggers creaky and breathy voicing respectively, which gets reinterpreted
>> as tone.
>>
>> Does nasalization also trigger tonogenesis in any languages?
>>
>> Hmm, this'll lead to a high degree of homophony, but since this only occurs
>> in compounds, it might be easier to disambiguate.
>>
>> Oooh, especially if this occurs in an earlier agglunative phase of the
>> language, which then becomes more analytic.
>>
>> How confusing. :)
>>
>
> I don't think nasalisation will trigger tonogenesis. Usually tones arise
> from glottal stuff, as explained by others. There's an interesting paper
> about it which has already been mentioned on this list before:
> http://www.csuchico.edu/~gthurgood/Papers/TonogenesisHarris.
I was about to suggest Thurgood's work. It talks about how prevocalic stop
voicing can cause or contribute to tone. It's been a while since I read it, but
ISTR that it's uncommon for prevocalic stop voicing to lead to tones in the
absence of other things, e.g. postvocalic laryngeal distinctions; but Cham,
which Thurgood writes extensively about, does seem to show such a development.
Messages in this topic (33)
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3.2. Re: Tonogenesis
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 4, 2013 7:43 am ((PST))
My understanding of tonogenesis is that is depends on vd/vl initial stops. Vl
--> high tone, voiced --> low tone ( often with devoicing, either via a breathy
voice stage (Khmer I think), or maybe pre-glottalization). The Chamic langs.
have been influenced by both Khmer and Vietnamese. James Matisoff is THE
expert, I don't know how much of his work is online; he did write a paper on
Tonogenesis and has theorized extensively about it.
Quite possibly medial/final consonants also play a role, maybe esp. in the
development of rising/falling or other complex tones.....
In Gwr (my tonal conlang) even the vowels/diphthongs can have an effect, /i, u/
being 'high', /a/ being low. It depended too on whether the *form was CVCV or
CVCVC.
--- On Sun, 3/3/13, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Tonogenesis
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, March 3, 2013, 9:05 PM
On Mar 2, 2013, at 12:19 PM, Njenfalgar wrote:
> 2013/3/2 Patrick Dunn <[email protected]>
>
>> So I could have a general lenition rule for final consonants. Stops are
>> weakened to [?] and fricatives to [h] before another consonant, which
>> triggers creaky and breathy voicing respectively, which gets reinterpreted
>> as tone.
>>
>> Does nasalization also trigger tonogenesis in any languages?
>>
>> Hmm, this'll lead to a high degree of homophony, but since this only occurs
>> in compounds, it might be easier to disambiguate.
>>
>> Oooh, especially if this occurs in an earlier agglunative phase of the
>> language, which then becomes more analytic.
>>
>> How confusing. :)
>>
>
> I don't think nasalisation will trigger tonogenesis. Usually tones arise
> from glottal stuff, as explained by others. There's an interesting paper
> about it which has already been mentioned on this list before:
> http://www.csuchico.edu/~gthurgood/Papers/TonogenesisHarris.
I was about to suggest Thurgood's work. It talks about how prevocalic stop
voicing can cause or contribute to tone. It's been a while since I read it, but
ISTR that it's uncommon for prevocalic stop voicing to lead to tones in the
absence of other things, e.g. postvocalic laryngeal distinctions; but Cham,
which Thurgood writes extensively about, does seem to show such a development.
Messages in this topic (33)
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4a. Re: OT: Kindles (was: Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 3, 2013 6:34 pm ((PST))
I would have already bought a Kindle if the Brazilian import taxes on
it didn't double its price.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/3/3 And Rosta <[email protected]>:
> A. da Mek, On 01/03/2013 08:34:
>>
>> I am not sure how it is in other parts of the universe and
>> multiverse, but here an average sized book costs about 30 Ermines*)
>> and a Kindle costs about 250 Ermines; so for everyone who intends to
>> read more than 8 books in his life it is cheeper to use the e-book.
>> In the landscape mode, even the .pdf files are usually readable on
>> the 800x600 px screen. I downloaded this Egyptian grammar and
>> although the letters are small, they can be read clearly. (I bought
>> Kindle when I wanted to read the Assyrinan dictionary
>
>
> Is it worth having (buying, toting around) a Kindle just as a pdf reader?
> Pdfs formatted for standard printed pages remain readable? On the Kindle
> I've seen, the text is formatted for a much smaller page size, more like
> what you'd expect from A6 or suchlike. My phone has a resolution of 480 x
> 800, which makes pdfs viewable only with pain and inconvenience. Are pdfs
> annotatable and are the annotations easy to export in a meaningful way (so
> that one can tell which part of the text they pertain to)? Is the onscreen
> keyboard (ABCDE rather than QWERTY in the pics I've seen) usable without
> pain?
>
> How do others read and annotate pdfs? Me I skim stuff on the laptop, and for
> careful reading and annotation I print them out and write on them with a
> pen, and eventually lose many of them in piles of papers.
>
> --And.
Messages in this topic (12)
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5a. Re: Boontling 'language'
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 4, 2013 7:31 am ((PST))
This is hardly new news.........I think I first heard of it from an article in
like Time Mag. or some other popular source, quite a ways back (probably late
50s or early 60s). I didn't have a TV for years, so wouldn't have seen/heard
the guy on Jack Paar's show.
The precise origin of some of those words (like 'cheaters' which I think I've
heard since childhood (1940s) possibly from a grandparent) would be hard to
pin down, since they're primarily from colloq. speech, and most "first
attributions" depend on printed sources.
--- On Sat, 3/2/13, Douglas Koller <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Douglas Koller <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Boontling 'language'
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 11:46 PM
> Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:54:58 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Boontling 'language'
> To: [email protected]
> My brother-in-law just told me about something called Boontling, a
> derivative language based mostly on English, spoken in Boonville,
> California.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boontling
I, and I think most members of my immediate family, are/were familiar with
"cheaters" for "glasses/spectacles", though I'd associate it with obsolete
early 20th-century usage ("We come to here to cut a rug and you bring your
cheaters?! Take a powder."), not regionalism ("Would you like a sack for your
pop?"). And the "Bucket of Blood" is, for me, practically a cliché term for
that type of drinking establishment. One wonders if these particular words
trickled down from Boonville to Hollywood and out or something vice versa-like.
The rest of the list is news to me. Kou
Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Boontling 'language'
Posted by: "Paul Schleitwiler, FCM" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 4, 2013 10:38 am ((PST))
I first heard "cheaters" for eyeglasses in the context of card playing.
Tinted glasses, like sunglasses, allowed a card sharp to read the backs of
a marked deck.
Sunglasses also hid the wearer's eyes, making it harder to "tell" his
reactions, an unfair advantage over other players.
God bless you always, all ways,
Paul
On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> This is hardly new news.........I think I first heard of it from an
> article in like Time Mag. or some other popular source, quite a ways back
> (probably late 50s or early 60s). I didn't have a TV for years, so wouldn't
> have seen/heard the guy on Jack Paar's show.
>
> The precise origin of some of those words (like 'cheaters' which I think
> I've heard since childhood (1940s) possibly from a grandparent) would be
> hard to pin down, since they're primarily from colloq. speech, and most
> "first attributions" depend on printed sources.
>
> --- On Sat, 3/2/13, Douglas Koller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> From: Douglas Koller <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Boontling 'language'
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Saturday, March 2, 2013, 11:46 PM
>
> > Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2013 15:54:58 -0500
> > From: [email protected]
> > Subject: Boontling 'language'
> > To: [email protected]
>
> > My brother-in-law just told me about something called Boontling, a
> > derivative language based mostly on English, spoken in Boonville,
> > California.
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boontling
>
> I, and I think most members of my immediate family, are/were familiar with
> "cheaters" for "glasses/spectacles", though I'd associate it with obsolete
> early 20th-century usage ("We come to here to cut a rug and you bring your
> cheaters?! Take a powder."), not regionalism ("Would you like a sack for
> your pop?"). And the "Bucket of Blood" is, for me, practically a cliché
> term for that type of drinking establishment. One wonders if these
> particular words trickled down from Boonville to Hollywood and out or
> something vice versa-like. The rest of the list is news to me. Kou
>
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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6. Re: Kindles (was: Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russ
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 4, 2013 7:44 am ((PST))
> Is it worth having (buying, toting around) a Kindle just as a pdf reader?
The advantage of toting around a Kindle is that you can utilise those short
bits of time which would be otherwise lost - traveling in subway, waiting in
queue in supermarket, etc. (For longer work with .pdf files, there are
probably other devices which would be more suitable.)
Another advantage is that the display is passive and thus more pleasant for
eyes than the active display of a computer.
> Pdfs formatted for standard printed pages remain readable?
This question has two levels:
1) The width of 800 pixels in the landscape mode is fully capable to display
texts which are formated sanely, that is about 60 characters per line. Even
an "economically" formated document with 90 characters per line is still
rendered without much bluring. Documents scanned as an opended book, with
two pages side by side, are already in some degree blured, but the letters
are still easily recognisable.
2) But the diagonal is only 6 inch. Of course, characters and pictures on
the 6 inch display seen from the distance of one foot have the same size as
on the 12 inch display seen fom the distance of two feet - if you eye is
young enough to focus on so short distance, or if I take glasses slightly
stronger than I am using to watch computer screen. So the reading of a .pdf
file is not so comfortable as reading a .mobi file (which can be easily
converted from .epub, .html and other sane formats) where you can choose she
font size.
(The .pdf files which are not locked could be converted, but supprisingly
there is no software which would convert it correctly. Each line is taken as
a separate paragraph and the images are lost.)
> On the Kindle I've seen, the text is formatted for a much smaller page
> size, more like what you'd expect from A6 or suchlike. My phone has a
> resolution of 480 x 800, which makes pdfs viewable only with pain and
> inconvenience.
If you phone shows the .pdf in landscape mode, then the 800 pixel width is
the same as on Kindle.
> Are pdfs annotatable and are the annotations easy to export in a
> meaningful way (so that one can tell which part of the text they pertain
> to)?
The notes made on the device are stored in another format than those made on
the Kindle viewer under Windows. (This seems silly; is it not only a mater
of different versions?)
> Is the onscreen keyboard (ABCDE rather than QWERTY in the pics I've seen)
> usable without pain?
I have the simplest model without touchscreen, so the selecting of keys on
the onscreen keyboard (yes, ABCDE) is done by cursor and thus notes longer
than one or two words would be very time-consuming.
Messages in this topic (1)
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7. Fiat Lingua Article: Madeline Palmer's Draconic
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 4, 2013 11:14 am ((PST))
Just a quick note to let folks know that the latest installment of Madeline
Palmer's Draconic language has appeared on Fiat Lingua:
http://fiatlingua.org/2013/03/
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (1)
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