There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: [OT] Languages' Flag
From: Mathieu Roy
2a. CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
From: Leonardo Castro
2b. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
From: Matthew George
2c. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
From: Sam Stutter
2d. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
From: Matthew George
2e. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
From: Leonardo Castro
2f. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
From: Roger Mills
3a. USAGE: frame semantics of binding
From: Wm Annis
3b. Re: USAGE: frame semantics of binding
From: Leonardo Castro
4a. "English has the most words of any language"
From: Daniel Bowman
4b. Re: "English has the most words of any language"
From: George Corley
4c. Re: "English has the most words of any language"
From: Daniel Bowman
4d. Re: "English has the most words of any language"
From: George Corley
5a. weird msg.
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: weird msg.
From: Robert Marshall Murphy
Messages
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1. Re: [OT] Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Mathieu Roy" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:56 am ((PDT))
This website makes a good compromise between the two ideas I think:
http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] De la
part de Herman Miller
Envoyé : vendredi 15 mars 2013 03:00
À : [email protected]
Objet : Re: Languages' Flag
On 3/14/2013 12:28 AM, George Corley wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Herman
Miller<[email protected]>wrote:
>
>>
>> I guess Nunavut probably has a flag. But what about Cantonese, does the
>> Cantonese-speaking part of China have an associated flag? Hindi vs. Urdu?
>> Zulu vs. Xhosa? Even Bokmål vs. Nynorsk would be problematic with the
flag
>> representation of languages.
>>
>
> You could use the Hong Kong flag to represent Cantonese (and China
probably
> won't even block you for it).
Wu might be a better example, then.
> Hindi and Urdu are 1) basically the same
> language, and 2) closely tied to India and Pakistan, respectively, but all
> good points. I guess one issue is that many of the smaller languages I'm
> talking about aren't always getting their own site versions (though they
> often get translations on Wikipedia, which by the way, uses the more
> appropriate system which represents languages by their native names).
Basically the same spoken language, but the different writing systems
would be a barrier to reading.
> Of course, while the flag convention just breaks spectacularly, the native
> name method isn't perfect. Some languages have multiple names, meaning
you
> have to choose one or show them all. If it's just two names that are
> common, this isn't to big of an issue (eg 'español/castellano') but when
> you have something like Mandarin, which has three or four common names,
> some of them with political implications, it gets a little more difficult.
Korean is a problem either way: two flags, two names.
In my world I've got Zirinka and Simik (two names for the same
language), but I could use the flag of Simikal to represent this
language (if Simikal had a flag).
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:49 pm ((PDT))
Hi!
Being aware of the origin of some words changed the way I use them. I
usually start avoiding "less etymological" usages while favoring a
more restricted usage of each word. My speech ends up having less
synonyms than other people's speech.
Does something similar happen to you?
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
Posted by: "Matthew George" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:52 pm ((PDT))
I've begun to take care to keep certain kinds of multiple meanings
separate, and to eliminate them in some cases. I now dislike the use of
'look' to refer to appearance or semblance as opposed to active sight, for
example. Sure, it results in fewer synonyms, but English is particularly
rich in them - possibly one of the few special features I value in it now
that I know more about the possibilities available.
Matt G.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:09 pm ((PDT))
What's your opinion on the expression "could you borrow me a pencil"?
On 18 Mar 2013, at 22:52, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've begun to take care to keep certain kinds of multiple meanings
> separate, and to eliminate them in some cases. I now dislike the use of
> 'look' to refer to appearance or semblance as opposed to active sight, for
> example. Sure, it results in fewer synonyms, but English is particularly
> rich in them - possibly one of the few special features I value in it now
> that I know more about the possibilities available.
>
> Matt G.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2d. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
Posted by: "Matthew George" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:33 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> What's your opinion on the expression "could you borrow me a pencil"?
>
I'm not even sure what it means. Does it involve a request for another to
borrow a pencil for the speaker's use, or a request to borrow a pencil from
the addressee (that is, a request for them to loan a pencil)?
The first is fine. The second is execrable. I would give anyone uttering
it a chance to recant, and then execute them for a second offense.
Matt G.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2e. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:15 pm ((PDT))
In Brazil, the word "interior" is frequently used for "countryside",
cities that are not the capital of a state. I dislike this usage, and
I only use it as opposed to "litoral". I have already heard the
expression "cidade de interior do litoral" (coastal "interior" town).
BTW, the "countryside" itself doesn't seem completely reasonable to
me.
Another word I avoid is "razoável" (reasonable) with the meaning of
"average [quality]".
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/3/18 Matthew George <[email protected]>:
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> What's your opinion on the expression "could you borrow me a pencil"?
>>
>
> I'm not even sure what it means. Does it involve a request for another to
> borrow a pencil for the speaker's use, or a request to borrow a pencil from
> the addressee (that is, a request for them to loan a pencil)?
>
> The first is fine. The second is execrable. I would give anyone uttering
> it a chance to recant, and then execute them for a second offense.
>
> Matt G.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2f. Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:29 pm ((PDT))
Someone should go back to grade school ........
--- On Mon, 3/18/13, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Sam Stutter <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, March 18, 2013, 8:09 PM
What's your opinion on the expression "could you borrow me a pencil"?
On 18 Mar 2013, at 22:52, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've begun to take care to keep certain kinds of multiple meanings
> separate, and to eliminate them in some cases. I now dislike the use of
> 'look' to refer to appearance or semblance as opposed to active sight, for
> example. Sure, it results in fewer synonyms, but English is particularly
> rich in them - possibly one of the few special features I value in it now
> that I know more about the possibilities available.
>
> Matt G.
Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. USAGE: frame semantics of binding
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:34 pm ((PDT))
In English, we sometimes use a location adpositional phrase
to locate the point of attachment, but we can use "to" as a
general fallback,
I tied the ribbon on my wrist.
I tied to ribbon to my wrist.
I hitched the wagon to the truck.
I tied the singing goat to the tree.
I attached the label to the pudding.
The shaman bound her to the land.
What do other natlangs use for "to" here?
--
wm
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: USAGE: frame semantics of binding
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:09 pm ((PDT))
In Portuguese, similary, the most common preposition is "em" ("in"),
but one can also use the preposition "a" ("at" or "to"):
"Eu amarrei uma faixa no meu braço." ("no = em + o")
"Eu amarrei uma faixa ao meu braço." ("ao = a + o")
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/3/18 Wm Annis <[email protected]>:
> In English, we sometimes use a location adpositional phrase
> to locate the point of attachment, but we can use "to" as a
> general fallback,
>
> I tied the ribbon on my wrist.
> I tied to ribbon to my wrist.
> I hitched the wagon to the truck.
> I tied the singing goat to the tree.
> I attached the label to the pudding.
> The shaman bound her to the land.
>
> What do other natlangs use for "to" here?
>
> --
> wm
>
> --
> William S. Annis
> www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. "English has the most words of any language"
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:21 pm ((PDT))
Hey all,
I was talking to someone today, and he stated that English has the most words
of any language. I'm pretty suspicious when I hear such claims, and he did not
have direct evidence to back up his assertion. However, he is one of the
smartest and most knowledgeable people I know, and his father happened to be
chair of the department of linguistics at one point. It's hard to chalk his
claim up to ignorance or misinformation, so I started wondering: is this in
fact true?
I was wondering what list members think. Is this something that's been claimed
before, and if so, how is it regarded in the linguistic community? Does anyone
have a (reputable or suspicious) source that says English has the most words?
If this is a legitimate claim, how is it determined?
Danny
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: "English has the most words of any language"
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:30 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I was talking to someone today, and he stated that English has the most
> words of any language. I'm pretty suspicious when I hear such claims, and
> he did not have direct evidence to back up his assertion. However, he is
> one of the smartest and most knowledgeable people I know, and his father
> happened to be chair of the department of linguistics at one point. It's
> hard to chalk his claim up to ignorance or misinformation, so I started
> wondering: is this in fact true?
>
Number one: being intelligent does not prevent you from believing false
things. In fact, in some cases intelligent people will hold on to false
beliefs longer simply because they devote their mental resources to
rationalizing them.
On to the actual question -- there's no real way to put a solid number on
the number of "words" in a language. First of all, you need to define
"word", and that is not an easy task. Assuming that you mean a lexemes --
there is a lot of debate over what words are actually stored in the
lexicon, given that people productively coin words all the time, but not
all of those are necessarily stored. Then you have to somehow catalog all
the words in the mental lexica of all native speakers.
I really don't think that there are any good solutions to "How many words
does English have?". At the very least, an absolute number is not
possible. Going further and claiming that English has "the most words" is
even more problematic, considering the number of languages that aren't even
documented or are under documented.
Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: "English has the most words of any language"
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:37 pm ((PDT))
>
> On to the actual question -- there's no real way to put a solid number on
> the number of "words" in a language. First of all, you need to define
> "word", and that is not an easy task.
Right - that is one of my first concerns.
> Assuming that you mean a lexemes --
> there is a lot of debate over what words are actually stored in the
> lexicon, given that people productively coin words all the time, but not
> all of those are necessarily stored. Then you have to somehow catalog all
> the words in the mental lexica of all native speakers.
>
> I really don't think that there are any good solutions to "How many words
> does English have?". At the very least, an absolute number is not
> possible. Going further and claiming that English has "the most words" is
> even more problematic, considering the number of languages that aren't even
> documented or are under documented.
>
His argued that English has incorporated a great deal of words from other
languages (i.e. Latin, Greek), and that English has tended to incorporate
more than other languages. I think his argument could be moderated to
"English has a lot of words compared to most other languages" given the
diversity of peoples that speak it, but even that runs into the question of
measurement. I think it is likely that any literate language (i.e.
language with a large written corpus) will probably have more "words" than
a purely spoken language. Perhaps naively, I'd argue that because you can
write down words such as "incarnadine" and "syzygy", you are spared the
mental effort of remembering them, and can thus develop and use highly
specific terms that would be a real pain in a purely oral language.
Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: "English has the most words of any language"
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:54 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>wrote:
> His argued that English has incorporated a great deal of words from other
> languages (i.e. Latin, Greek), and that English has tended to incorporate
> more than other languages.
English is particularly loan-happy, but not really to any extreme degree.
I don't think there are any languages that don't have _some_ loanwords, and
very many languages are just as loan-happy as English, if not moreso.
> I think his argument could be moderated to
> "English has a lot of words compared to most other languages" given the
> diversity of peoples that speak it, but even that runs into the question of
> measurement.
Yes, and measurement is key.
> I think it is likely that any literate language (i.e.
> language with a large written corpus) will probably have more "words" than
> a purely spoken language. Perhaps naively, I'd argue that because you can
> write down words such as "incarnadine" and "syzygy", you are spared the
> mental effort of remembering them, and can thus develop and use highly
> specific terms that would be a real pain in a purely oral language.
>
Possible, but there is another issue in that some languages have very long
written histories. To what extent will you include obsolete words that are
scattered through the history of English, or earlier variant meanings of a
lexeme that are no longer used? If you're not careful, you could grossly
inflate the number of words in English or Chinese or any other language
with a long written history relative to, say, Navajo.
To some extent, including specialized technical terms also points out, for
me at least, that figuring out what language has the "most" words is kind
of pointless. It doesn't really give any great insight into language to
determine that a language has more lexemes if a huge number of those
lexemes will never be used by the average speaker.
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. weird msg.
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:40 pm ((PDT))
I (and 5 others) have received the following-- from one Campbell Nilsen a name
I don't recognize (nor do I recognize the names of the other 5 recipients).
I almost hesitate even to pass this along lest it's something bad for one's
computer--
This was the subject line:
http://elearnva.com/themes/bluemarine/ndvmh.htmland it goes to this:
http://www.starhunter.net/blog/wp-content/themes/classic/gqfji.html
I haven't opened that. Anyone know more?
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: weird msg.
Posted by: "Robert Marshall Murphy" [email protected]
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:42 pm ((PDT))
Definitely spam. I didn't click on it, but an open wp-content folder on a Word
Press blog is a common hack (that I fell victim to once). Don't click it.
-Robert Murphy-
On Mar 18, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> I (and 5 others) have received the following-- from one Campbell Nilsen a
> name I don't recognize (nor do I recognize the names of the other 5
> recipients).
> I almost hesitate even to pass this along lest it's something bad for one's
> computer--
>
> This was the subject line:
> http://elearnva.com/themes/bluemarine/ndvmh.htmland it goes to this:
> http://www.starhunter.net/blog/wp-content/themes/classic/gqfji.html
> I haven't opened that. Anyone know more?
Messages in this topic (2)
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