There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Leonardo Castro
1.2. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: BPJ
1.3. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Brent Scarcliff
1.4. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Roger Mills
2a. Re: Numbers for Janko
From: janko gorenc
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:49 am ((PDT))
BTW, does anyone have a system that distinguishes /n/, /m/, /N/ and a
general nasal stop /~/ with Roman characters?
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/4/29 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>:
> Yes, about women regarding men as sub-Yemoran. There's another language
> called Tangelian, for people who can't communicate due to deafness or other
> communicative disorders. Maybe the stamps could also be used fo them, jst
> pictorial stamps. They have a Prailea press for large documents. Maybe the
> stylus could make empty fields, and those fields could represent spaces.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of James Kane
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:18 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
>
> I like the idea of using a manual writing system on leather, and the fact
> that you're using leather as the writing medium makes it believable that
> such a system would come about. Simply punching holes would be easier as you
> would only need one sharp instrument to do it, rather than a set of stamps
> for each character which is what I assume was meant. Probably the first one
> would be for informal, 'handwritten' notes and the stamps would be akin to
> print. I'm imagining that a printing press would be invented at some point.
>
> With regards to the male-female thing, could it be that the females simply
> disregard men as sub-Yemoran? As an analogue to the way women were treated
> here in many cultures?
>
>
> James
>
>
> On 29/04/2013, at 3:59 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Good idea about having the leather stamped with emputy fields surrounding
>> the dots. Thanks.
>>
>> Men aren't taught to read or write. I'm thinking the women fear the men
> will
>> try to change the laws if they know how to read, as men will find it
> harder
>> to make their feelings about unequal rights known if they can't prove it's
>> true with written words.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:41 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
>>
>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has
>>> its own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
>>
>> These characters are certainly accessible as part of the character set, so
>> yes, you CAN use them for any purpose you'd like.
>>
>> I would only offer this caveat: folks here on the list will be more
>> forgiving of your use of accents as letters (if you take reasonable
>> care in describing what kind of sound goes with what character), but
>> I would strongly recommend devising a fairly standard transcription
>> for whenever you discuss Yemoran words here. The caveat is simply that
>> any prospective readers of your stories will be orders of magnitude
>> less forgiving. It wasn't so long ago, when Lorinda first published her
>> Termite Queen series and one of the first reviews panned her use of
>> the apostrophe as a morpheme separator within her transcription of the
>> Shshi language. If you just write whole long strings of "%^# @@! *^(#$"
>> I think this will be a much less popular idea than if you try to devise
>> a really good romanisation for the Yemorans' language. I know it will
>> be a wild sounding language, cos you've described them as being rather
>> insectile and having different arrangements of orifices for speaking.
>>
>>
>>> I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
>>> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter. They do use
>>> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in that it's
>>> raised.
>>
>> Others have already mentioned some problems regarding braille on leather.
>> You might consider stamping or impressing the leather with depressions in
>> stead of raised dots. Less likely to be worn down that way. Or as an
>> alternative, impress the leather with the empty field that surrounds the
>> raised dots (which themselves are unaltered leather surface). So, braille
>> comes in a 3x2 grid (as I recall) -- the device would simply consist of
>> a flat surfaced metal leather stamp with an opening in the middle to
>> represent the dot. The leather brailler simply has to work at stamping in
>> all the right places to create the dot patterns required.
>>
>>> However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who can't read nor
>>> write
>>
>> Interesting about males not using it. Why is this?
>>
>> Padraic
Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:04 am ((PDT))
2013-04-30 13:49, Leonardo Castro skrev:
> BTW, does anyone have a system that distinguishes /n/, /m/, /N/ and a
> general nasal stop /~/ with Roman characters?
You mean nasalization like in French or Portuguese I suppose,
coz that's what /~/ is.
In one sketch for an all-ASCII Indo-Iranian-like lang I made
I had
m /m/ n /n/ nh /n`/ nj /J/ ngh /N/
mh /~/
It was one of my over the top orthography and
transcription scetches and also had weirdnesses like
s /ts/ z /dz/ sh /s/ zh /z/
sj /ts\/ zj /dz\/ shj /s\/ zhj /\z/
c /t`/ x /d`/ ch /t`s`/ xh /d`z`/ rh /s`/
beside saner
ph /f/ th /T/ dh /D/ kh /x/ gh /G/
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
>
> 2013/4/29 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>:
>> Yes, about women regarding men as sub-Yemoran. There's another language
>> called Tangelian, for people who can't communicate due to deafness or other
>> communicative disorders. Maybe the stamps could also be used fo them, jst
>> pictorial stamps. They have a Prailea press for large documents. Maybe the
>> stylus could make empty fields, and those fields could represent spaces.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of James Kane
>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:18 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
>>
>> I like the idea of using a manual writing system on leather, and the fact
>> that you're using leather as the writing medium makes it believable that
>> such a system would come about. Simply punching holes would be easier as you
>> would only need one sharp instrument to do it, rather than a set of stamps
>> for each character which is what I assume was meant. Probably the first one
>> would be for informal, 'handwritten' notes and the stamps would be akin to
>> print. I'm imagining that a printing press would be invented at some point.
>>
>> With regards to the male-female thing, could it be that the females simply
>> disregard men as sub-Yemoran? As an analogue to the way women were treated
>> here in many cultures?
>>
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>> On 29/04/2013, at 3:59 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Good idea about having the leather stamped with emputy fields surrounding
>>> the dots. Thanks.
>>>
>>> Men aren't taught to read or write. I'm thinking the women fear the men
>> will
>>> try to change the laws if they know how to read, as men will find it
>> harder
>>> to make their feelings about unequal rights known if they can't prove it's
>>> true with written words.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
>>> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:41 PM
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>> <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has
>>>> its own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
>>>
>>> These characters are certainly accessible as part of the character set, so
>>> yes, you CAN use them for any purpose you'd like.
>>>
>>> I would only offer this caveat: folks here on the list will be more
>>> forgiving of your use of accents as letters (if you take reasonable
>>> care in describing what kind of sound goes with what character), but
>>> I would strongly recommend devising a fairly standard transcription
>>> for whenever you discuss Yemoran words here. The caveat is simply that
>>> any prospective readers of your stories will be orders of magnitude
>>> less forgiving. It wasn't so long ago, when Lorinda first published her
>>> Termite Queen series and one of the first reviews panned her use of
>>> the apostrophe as a morpheme separator within her transcription of the
>>> Shshi language. If you just write whole long strings of "%^# @@! *^(#$"
>>> I think this will be a much less popular idea than if you try to devise
>>> a really good romanisation for the Yemorans' language. I know it will
>>> be a wild sounding language, cos you've described them as being rather
>>> insectile and having different arrangements of orifices for speaking.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
>>>> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter. They do use
>>>> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in that it's
>>>> raised.
>>>
>>> Others have already mentioned some problems regarding braille on leather.
>>> You might consider stamping or impressing the leather with depressions in
>>> stead of raised dots. Less likely to be worn down that way. Or as an
>>> alternative, impress the leather with the empty field that surrounds the
>>> raised dots (which themselves are unaltered leather surface). So, braille
>>> comes in a 3x2 grid (as I recall) -- the device would simply consist of
>>> a flat surfaced metal leather stamp with an opening in the middle to
>>> represent the dot. The leather brailler simply has to work at stamping in
>>> all the right places to create the dot patterns required.
>>>
>>>> However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who can't read nor
>>>> write
>>>
>>> Interesting about males not using it. Why is this?
>>>
>>> Padraic
>
Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Brent Scarcliff" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:05 am ((PDT))
Yes, for historical reasons I use:
n = /~/pn = /m/tn = /n/kn = /¿/qn = /N/
> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:49:10 -0300
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
> To: [email protected]
>
> BTW, does anyone have a system that distinguishes /n/, /m/, /N/ and a
> general nasal stop /~/ with Roman characters?
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
>
> 2013/4/29 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>:
> > Yes, about women regarding men as sub-Yemoran. There's another language
> > called Tangelian, for people who can't communicate due to deafness or other
> > communicative disorders. Maybe the stamps could also be used fo them, jst
> > pictorial stamps. They have a Prailea press for large documents. Maybe the
> > stylus could make empty fields, and those fields could represent spaces.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of James Kane
> > Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:18 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
> >
> > I like the idea of using a manual writing system on leather, and the fact
> > that you're using leather as the writing medium makes it believable that
> > such a system would come about. Simply punching holes would be easier as you
> > would only need one sharp instrument to do it, rather than a set of stamps
> > for each character which is what I assume was meant. Probably the first one
> > would be for informal, 'handwritten' notes and the stamps would be akin to
> > print. I'm imagining that a printing press would be invented at some point.
> >
> > With regards to the male-female thing, could it be that the females simply
> > disregard men as sub-Yemoran? As an analogue to the way women were treated
> > here in many cultures?
> >
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > On 29/04/2013, at 3:59 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Good idea about having the leather stamped with emputy fields surrounding
> >> the dots. Thanks.
> >>
> >> Men aren't taught to read or write. I'm thinking the women fear the men
> > will
> >> try to change the laws if they know how to read, as men will find it
> > harder
> >> to make their feelings about unequal rights known if they can't prove it's
> >> true with written words.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> >> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:41 PM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
> >>
> >> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> > <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has
> >>> its own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
> >>
> >> These characters are certainly accessible as part of the character set, so
> >> yes, you CAN use them for any purpose you'd like.
> >>
> >> I would only offer this caveat: folks here on the list will be more
> >> forgiving of your use of accents as letters (if you take reasonable
> >> care in describing what kind of sound goes with what character), but
> >> I would strongly recommend devising a fairly standard transcription
> >> for whenever you discuss Yemoran words here. The caveat is simply that
> >> any prospective readers of your stories will be orders of magnitude
> >> less forgiving. It wasn't so long ago, when Lorinda first published her
> >> Termite Queen series and one of the first reviews panned her use of
> >> the apostrophe as a morpheme separator within her transcription of the
> >> Shshi language. If you just write whole long strings of "%^# @@! *^(#$"
> >> I think this will be a much less popular idea than if you try to devise
> >> a really good romanisation for the Yemorans' language. I know it will
> >> be a wild sounding language, cos you've described them as being rather
> >> insectile and having different arrangements of orifices for speaking.
> >>
> >>
> >>> I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
> >>> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter. They do use
> >>> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in that it's
> >>> raised.
> >>
> >> Others have already mentioned some problems regarding braille on leather.
> >> You might consider stamping or impressing the leather with depressions in
> >> stead of raised dots. Less likely to be worn down that way. Or as an
> >> alternative, impress the leather with the empty field that surrounds the
> >> raised dots (which themselves are unaltered leather surface). So, braille
> >> comes in a 3x2 grid (as I recall) -- the device would simply consist of
> >> a flat surfaced metal leather stamp with an opening in the middle to
> >> represent the dot. The leather brailler simply has to work at stamping in
> >> all the right places to create the dot patterns required.
> >>
> >>> However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who can't read nor
> >>> write
> >>
> >> Interesting about males not using it. Why is this?
> >>
> >> Padraic
Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:38 am ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 4/30/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
BTW, does anyone have a system that distinguishes /n/, /m/, /N/ and a
general nasal stop /~/ with Roman characters?
===========================================
Not sure this qualifies, but.....
Indonesian/Malay might come close with prefix-final "ng", (as in "meng-,
'active Vb.', peng- 'agent noun') which does various things depending on the
initial consonant of the word they're attached to: (and this is true of many
Austronesian languages, ceteris paribus)--
...ng + p,t,s,k > m, n, ñ, ng (meng+putus > memutus; meng+tukar > menukar,
meng+suci > menyuci, meng+kalah > mengalah
It's simply dropped before initial /r, l/ (meng+rata/kan > meratakan,
meng+layar/kan > melayarkan))--and I think it also drops before /w, y/, but
those are very rare initials.
(In Javanese, at some some verbs with initial /c-/ also substitute with /ñ/)
Otherwise, it assimilates to voiced initials > mb, nd, nj, ngg (and nc in
Indo., meng+cuci > mencuci, Jav. meñuci ((suci and cuci are basically the same
word, a Skt. loan meaning 'clean, wash; holy'))
It only survives as ng before vowels and /h/ (IIRC) (meng+ajar/kan >
mengajarkan et al. , meng+harus/kan > mengharuskan
AFMCL Kash, various nasal-final prefixes do similar things; but the underlying
nasal in this case is /ñ/ (/añ-, kañ- 'nominalizers') or /m/ in the case of
/rum-/ 'causative vb.')-- the /ñ,m/ only appear as such before initial vowels.
Messages in this topic (28)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Numbers for Janko
Posted by: "janko gorenc" [email protected]
Date: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:37 am ((PDT))
Thank you for sodna-lÉni numbers.
Could you please tell me for pronounciation double nn?
Thank you for your add information!
Janko Gorenc
________________________________
From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:58 AM
Subject: Numbers for Janko
For my new language, sodna-lÉni:
Count Adj Adverb (Times)
one anda and(a)- andaya
two ÉnÉ Én(a)- Éneya
three hada had(a)- hadaya
four ala al(a)- alaya
five amma amm(a)- ɪyÉ amma
six teha teh(a)- ɪyÉ teha
seven onna onn(a)- ɪyÉ onna
eight nonda nond(a)-ɪyÉ nonda
nine adba adb(a)- ɪyÉ adba
ten dadÉn dadÉn- ɪyÉ dadÉn
eleven obiɬ obiɬ- ɪyÉ obiɬ
twelve adaɬ adaɬ- ɪyÉ adaɬ
Numbers are generally treated as adjectives and follow the noun. However, a
number can precede the noun and act like a quantifier if referring to all
of the nouns. So,
kodna Énna two boys
Énna kodna both boys
kodna hadna three boys
hadna kodna all three boys
nadna kodna all boys
I have not yet figured out if the counting system is base 8 or base 10 or
even base 12.
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (4)
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