There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Vidal, a new constructed language like Volapük
From: Leonardo Castro
2a. Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2b. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: H. S. Teoh
2c. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2d. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Padraic Brown
2e. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2f. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Patrick Dunn
2g. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2h. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Patrick Dunn
2i. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2j. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: H. S. Teoh
2k. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: H. S. Teoh
2l. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2m. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2n. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Vidal, a new constructed language like Volapük
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 11:09 am ((PDT))
2013/5/1 Padraic Brown <[email protected]>:
>> parse grammatical constructions, interpret meaning -- all within a
>> second or so before you're unable to keep up. I know people who are
>> excellent at reading/writing English, but falter at the slightest turn of
>> phrase or colloquialism in conversation. Throw in local dialects /
>> slang, and you easily have the situation Widstrand found himself in.
I had this kind of problem in my hometown; after a long time not going
there, I wasn't able to understand some slangs my cousins spoke on the
streets. But they were young people that are always inventing new
slangs.
Messages in this topic (81)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 3:41 pm ((PDT))
I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc for Yardish. Do I
put slashes in between? And do I spell the transcription the way it sounds?
For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese but it's pronounced
saah breece.
Thanks.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 4:02 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc for Yardish.
> Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the transcription the way
> it sounds?
>
> For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese but it's
> pronounced saah breece.
[...]
The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA (International
Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to transcribe
sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to sounds in
English spelling is very complex and often not consistent, and also the
actual pronunciation of English differs according to regional dialect.
You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful (it has audio
files to go with each symbol):
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this helpful:
http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
T
--
This is a tpyo.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 4:20 pm ((PDT))
Thanks. I have the Course Text book, and have the index of sounds saved.
Even though I have the later edition, I still feel the sounds will be
helpful. Thanks for the other links, though. The Conlang CXS site seems
screen reader friendly, but how do I use it?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of H. S. Teoh
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 4:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
wrote:
> I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc for Yardish.
> Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the transcription the way
> it sounds?
>
> For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese but it's
> pronounced saah breece.
[...]
The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA (International
Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to transcribe
sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to sounds in
English spelling is very complex and often not consistent, and also the
actual pronunciation of English differs according to regional dialect.
You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful (it has audio
files to go with each symbol):
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this helpful:
http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
T
--
This is a tpyo.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 7:30 pm ((PDT))
--- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc
> for Yardish.
> > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> transcription the way
> > it sounds?
> >
> > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese
> > but it's pronounced saah breece.
So, which is it?
> The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> (International
> Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to
> transcribe
> sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to
> sounds in
> English spelling is very complex and often not consistent,
> and also the
> actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> regional dialect.
All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many YAEPT-fests can attest,
for any claim about a sound, there are at least three different, divergent
and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the sound, plus an
additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong, and then twelve
more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further twelve on the
way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in to remind us
that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so the other 20
subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and Aussies will
get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans. Pretty soon,
every country and language in the world will have weighed in on the
original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up 527 different
ways to pronounce "a".
The point being, you can certainly say that a word is pronounced "sah
breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece" pronounced!?
> You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
>
> To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful
> (it has audio
> files to go with each symbol):
>
> http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA sounds at
Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no problem playing
these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I think.
> For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> helpful:
>
> http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
Padraic
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 7:55 pm ((PDT))
Sabrice is pronounced differently than how it sounds. It may be spelled
differently depending on village and city.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Padraic Brown
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
--- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc
> for Yardish.
> > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> transcription the way
> > it sounds?
> >
> > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese
> > but it's pronounced saah breece.
So, which is it?
> The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> (International
> Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to
> transcribe
> sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to
> sounds in
> English spelling is very complex and often not consistent,
> and also the
> actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> regional dialect.
All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many YAEPT-fests can attest,
for any claim about a sound, there are at least three different, divergent
and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the sound, plus an
additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong, and then twelve
more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further twelve on the
way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in to remind us
that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so the other 20
subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and Aussies will
get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans. Pretty soon,
every country and language in the world will have weighed in on the
original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up 527 different
ways to pronounce "a".
The point being, you can certainly say that a word is pronounced "sah
breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece" pronounced!?
> You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
>
> To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful
> (it has audio
> files to go with each symbol):
>
> http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA sounds at
Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no problem playing
these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I think.
> For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> helpful:
>
> http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
Padraic
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 7:56 pm ((PDT))
How can something be pronounced differently than how it sounds? How it
sounds is how it's pronounced.
I think you must be misunderstanding a fundamental concept here, but I'm
not sure what it is.
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Sabrice is pronounced differently than how it sounds. It may be spelled
> differently depending on village and city.
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
>
> --- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> > On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> > -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc
> > for Yardish.
> > > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> > transcription the way
> > > it sounds?
> > >
> > > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese
> > > but it's pronounced saah breece.
>
> So, which is it?
>
> > The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> > (International
> > Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to
> > transcribe
> > sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to
> > sounds in
> > English spelling is very complex and often not consistent,
> > and also the
> > actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> > regional dialect.
>
> All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many YAEPT-fests can attest,
> for any claim about a sound, there are at least three different, divergent
> and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the sound, plus an
> additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong, and then twelve
> more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further twelve on the
> way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in to remind us
> that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so the other 20
> subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and Aussies will
> get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans. Pretty soon,
> every country and language in the world will have weighed in on the
> original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up 527 different
> ways to pronounce "a".
>
> The point being, you can certainly say that a word is pronounced "sah
> breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece" pronounced!?
>
> > You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
> >
> > To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful
> > (it has audio
> > files to go with each symbol):
> >
> > http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
>
> For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA sounds at
> Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no problem playing
> these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I think.
>
> > For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> > helpful:
> >
> > http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
>
> Padraic
>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 8:06 pm ((PDT))
Humm. Makes sense. So how do I write out transcriptions?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
How can something be pronounced differently than how it sounds? How it
sounds is how it's pronounced.
I think you must be misunderstanding a fundamental concept here, but I'm
not sure what it is.
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Sabrice is pronounced differently than how it sounds. It may be spelled
> differently depending on village and city.
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
>
> --- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> > On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> > -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc
> > for Yardish.
> > > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> > transcription the way
> > > it sounds?
> > >
> > > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese
> > > but it's pronounced saah breece.
>
> So, which is it?
>
> > The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> > (International
> > Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to
> > transcribe
> > sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to
> > sounds in
> > English spelling is very complex and often not consistent,
> > and also the
> > actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> > regional dialect.
>
> All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many YAEPT-fests can attest,
> for any claim about a sound, there are at least three different, divergent
> and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the sound, plus an
> additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong, and then twelve
> more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further twelve on the
> way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in to remind us
> that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so the other 20
> subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and Aussies will
> get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans. Pretty soon,
> every country and language in the world will have weighed in on the
> original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up 527 different
> ways to pronounce "a".
>
> The point being, you can certainly say that a word is pronounced "sah
> breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece" pronounced!?
>
> > You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
> >
> > To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful
> > (it has audio
> > files to go with each symbol):
> >
> > http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
>
> For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA sounds at
> Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no problem playing
> these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I think.
>
> > For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> > helpful:
> >
> > http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
>
> Padraic
>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 8:20 pm ((PDT))
IPA is an alphabet designed to unambiguously represent every possible
speech sound, with a single character per sound. Speech sounds are
identified by describing how they're made, according to standardized
descriptors. In general, there are three things looked at in describing
most sounds:
1. Voicing. This category describes how the vocal cords are vibrating.
In general, many languages distinguish between voiced (vocal cords
vibrating fully) and unvoiced (vocal cords not vibrating). There are also
other categories, such as "creaky voice," meaning that the vocal cords are
vibrating but held tenser than in a voiced sound. These other categories
are fairly rare. The correct terminology is "voiced" and "unvoiced" for
the two extremes.
2. Place of articulation. This category describes where in the mouth the
air-flow is obstructed, causing the turbulence that we hear as a speech
sound. Each part of the vocal apparatus has a Latinate name, and in
general this Latinate label describes where the tongue is touching, almost
touching, or where the lips are touching. In general, you have the lips
(labial), the teeth (dental), the hard ridge just behind your front teeth
that you burn when you eat pizza (alveolar), the hard roof of your mouth
with the little ridges (palatal), the soft part of the roof of your mouth
further back (velar), the tiny little flap of skin that hangs down right at
the back of your throat (uvular), or your vocal cords (glottal).
3. Manner of articulation. The airflow can be manipulated in several
ways, and this label describes how that airflow is restricted. These can
range from plosives (stopping the airflow, sometimes called stops) to
fricatives (creating some friction) to approximates (creating very little
friction). There are lots of different labels, and often the analysis of a
language will come up with reasonable variations in order to efficiently
categorize sounds.
Vowels, unlike consonants, use a slightly different system that describes
how closed the mouth is (close or open) and how far extended forward the
tongue is (front and back).
It would be incredibly cumbersome to describe every single sound in every
single word in this way, of course, so individual symbols have been given
to particular sounds. These symbols are universal; you don't invent your
own. Unfortunately, this will likely be a bit of a stumbling block for
you, as I'm not sure if there are extensions for voice recognition software
that can read these symbols.
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Humm. Makes sense. So how do I write out transcriptions?
>
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:57 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
>
> How can something be pronounced differently than how it sounds? How it
> sounds is how it's pronounced.
>
> I think you must be misunderstanding a fundamental concept here, but I'm
> not sure what it is.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Sabrice is pronounced differently than how it sounds. It may be spelled
> > differently depending on village and city.
> >
> > Mellissa Green
> >
> >
> > @GreenNovelist
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:31 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
> >
> > --- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> > > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> > > On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> > > -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > > > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc
> > > for Yardish.
> > > > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> > > transcription the way
> > > > it sounds?
> > > >
> > > > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese
> > > > but it's pronounced saah breece.
> >
> > So, which is it?
> >
> > > The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> > > (International
> > > Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to
> > > transcribe
> > > sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to
> > > sounds in
> > > English spelling is very complex and often not consistent,
> > > and also the
> > > actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> > > regional dialect.
> >
> > All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many YAEPT-fests can
> attest,
> > for any claim about a sound, there are at least three different,
> divergent
> > and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the sound, plus an
> > additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong, and then twelve
> > more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further twelve on the
> > way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in to remind us
> > that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so the other 20
> > subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and Aussies will
> > get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans. Pretty soon,
> > every country and language in the world will have weighed in on the
> > original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up 527 different
> > ways to pronounce "a".
> >
> > The point being, you can certainly say that a word is pronounced "sah
> > breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece" pronounced!?
> >
> > > You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
> > >
> > > To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful
> > > (it has audio
> > > files to go with each symbol):
> > >
> > > http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
> >
> > For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA sounds at
> > Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no problem playing
> > these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I think.
> >
> > > For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> > > helpful:
> > >
> > > http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
> _1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2i. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 8:48 pm ((PDT))
I'm not sure either. Yemorans have a complex vocal system, and there are
speaking hairs and a vocal . Maybe they have a glottal stop. Given that
Yemorans can't eat and talk at the same time, they have two mouths. The
mouths don't open at the same time. The outer and inner mouths aren't
visible at the same time. There are also three breathing forms, normal,
conversational, and eating. My screen reader just reads the letters, and I
have textbooks that describe the symbols, but the reader finds it a bit
difficult, and I still can't visualize what they look like. For example,
some symbol may looks like a small U, and I don't think Braille and print
U's look like. How does this conlang sampa site work, looks like it has a
converter.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 8:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
IPA is an alphabet designed to unambiguously represent every possible
speech sound, with a single character per sound. Speech sounds are
identified by describing how they're made, according to standardized
descriptors. In general, there are three things looked at in describing
most sounds:
1. Voicing. This category describes how the vocal cords are vibrating.
In general, many languages distinguish between voiced (vocal cords
vibrating fully) and unvoiced (vocal cords not vibrating). There are also
other categories, such as "creaky voice," meaning that the vocal cords are
vibrating but held tenser than in a voiced sound. These other categories
are fairly rare. The correct terminology is "voiced" and "unvoiced" for
the two extremes.
2. Place of articulation. This category describes where in the mouth the
air-flow is obstructed, causing the turbulence that we hear as a speech
sound. Each part of the vocal apparatus has a Latinate name, and in
general this Latinate label describes where the tongue is touching, almost
touching, or where the lips are touching. In general, you have the lips
(labial), the teeth (dental), the hard ridge just behind your front teeth
that you burn when you eat pizza (alveolar), the hard roof of your mouth
with the little ridges (palatal), the soft part of the roof of your mouth
further back (velar), the tiny little flap of skin that hangs down right at
the back of your throat (uvular), or your vocal cords (glottal).
3. Manner of articulation. The airflow can be manipulated in several
ways, and this label describes how that airflow is restricted. These can
range from plosives (stopping the airflow, sometimes called stops) to
fricatives (creating some friction) to approximates (creating very little
friction). There are lots of different labels, and often the analysis of a
language will come up with reasonable variations in order to efficiently
categorize sounds.
Vowels, unlike consonants, use a slightly different system that describes
how closed the mouth is (close or open) and how far extended forward the
tongue is (front and back).
It would be incredibly cumbersome to describe every single sound in every
single word in this way, of course, so individual symbols have been given
to particular sounds. These symbols are universal; you don't invent your
own. Unfortunately, this will likely be a bit of a stumbling block for
you, as I'm not sure if there are extensions for voice recognition software
that can read these symbols.
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Humm. Makes sense. So how do I write out transcriptions?
>
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:57 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
>
> How can something be pronounced differently than how it sounds? How it
> sounds is how it's pronounced.
>
> I think you must be misunderstanding a fundamental concept here, but I'm
> not sure what it is.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Sabrice is pronounced differently than how it sounds. It may be spelled
> > differently depending on village and city.
> >
> > Mellissa Green
> >
> >
> > @GreenNovelist
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:31 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
> >
> > --- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> > > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> > > On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> > > -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > > > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc
> > > for Yardish.
> > > > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> > > transcription the way
> > > > it sounds?
> > > >
> > > > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese
> > > > but it's pronounced saah breece.
> >
> > So, which is it?
> >
> > > The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> > > (International
> > > Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to
> > > transcribe
> > > sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to
> > > sounds in
> > > English spelling is very complex and often not consistent,
> > > and also the
> > > actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> > > regional dialect.
> >
> > All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many YAEPT-fests can
> attest,
> > for any claim about a sound, there are at least three different,
> divergent
> > and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the sound, plus an
> > additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong, and then
twelve
> > more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further twelve on the
> > way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in to remind us
> > that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so the other
20
> > subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and Aussies will
> > get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans. Pretty
soon,
> > every country and language in the world will have weighed in on the
> > original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up 527
different
> > ways to pronounce "a".
> >
> > The point being, you can certainly say that a word is pronounced "sah
> > breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece" pronounced!?
> >
> > > You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
> > >
> > > To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful
> > > (it has audio
> > > files to go with each symbol):
> > >
> > > http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
> >
> > For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA sounds at
> > Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no problem playing
> > these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I think.
> >
> > > For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> > > helpful:
> > >
> > > http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
> _1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2j. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 10:04 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 11:48:01PM -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> I'm not sure either. Yemorans have a complex vocal system, and there
> are speaking hairs and a vocal . Maybe they have a glottal stop. Given
> that Yemorans can't eat and talk at the same time, they have two
> mouths. The mouths don't open at the same time. The outer and inner
> mouths aren't visible at the same time. There are also three breathing
> forms, normal, conversational, and eating.
Wow. Sounds like you may need to invent your own system, if the native
speakers of your language have such fundamental differences in their
vocal apparatus. Though you probably still want to use some kind of
adaptation of IPA for the sake of the rest of us, so that we have some
kind of reference point to go on.
> My screen reader just reads the letters, and I have textbooks that
> describe the symbols, but the reader finds it a bit difficult, and I
> still can't visualize what they look like. For example, some symbol
> may looks like a small U, and I don't think Braille and print U's look
> like. How does this conlang sampa site work, looks like it has a
> converter.
[...]
Hmm. Maybe it might help if you learn the ASCII transcriptions of the
IPA symbols? Does your screen reader handle ASCII symbols well? On this
list, we like to use CXS (Conlang X-Sampa). Unfortunately I don't know
if there are any resources currently that specifically key CXS to audio
sounds just yet. For example, here's a snippet of CXS from my conlang
Tatari Faran:
["san ts)E . mi"nasa "tE"kE ?aj . mi"nejn sej "si:]
Here are the symbols used. Some symbols are digraphs or trigraphs, due
to the limited inventory of ASCII characters; so such sequences should
be regarded as a single unit.
1. The double quote ["] represents primary stress;
2. The small letter [s] represents the alveolar fricative (same as the
English S);
3. The small letter [a] represents open front unrounded cardinal vowel;
4. The trigraph [ts)] (that's small T, small S, and right parenthesis)
represents the unvoiced alveolar affricate;
5. The capital letter [E] represents the open mid unrounded vowel;
6. The small letters [m] and [n] represent, respectively, the bilabial
and alveolar nasal stops (i.e., the English M and N);
7. The small letter [i] represents the close front unrounded vowel (i.e.
how most English dialects pronounce EE, such as in "seek", except
that it is short);
8. The small letter [t] represents the unaspirated alveolar stop (like
the English T in the middle of a word, but not at the beginning);
9. The question mark [?] represents the glottal stop;
10. The small letter [j] represents the palatal approximant (like the
English Y);
11. The small letter [e] represents the close-mid front unrounded vowel;
12. The colon [:] represents length; so [i:] (small I followed by colon)
means a long vowel, like the English EE.
Hmm, come to think of it, your screen reader may not handle this very
well either, if it tries to read consecutive letters as words rather
than individual characters. Unless there is a way to tell it to spell
out every letter/symbol?
Maybe we should invent a screen-reader-friendly transcription of IPA! :)
Like with spaces between every symbol so that it doesn't try to
pronounce consecutive symbols as a word, or using only capital letters
to make it pronounce each letter, etc..
T
--
Amateurs built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2k. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 10:16 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 10:02:30PM -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
[...]
> Maybe we should invent a screen-reader-friendly transcription of IPA! :)
> Like with spaces between every symbol so that it doesn't try to
> pronounce consecutive symbols as a word, or using only capital letters
> to make it pronounce each letter, etc..
[...]
P.S. I don't know which screen reader you use, but I found the following
webpage that describes how to make the JAWS screen reader work correctly
with IPA symbols:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/blogs/gotunicode/2008/09/getting-jaws-61-to-recognize-e.html
Maybe this might help?
T
--
Debian GNU/Linux: Cray on your desktop.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2l. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 10:23 pm ((PDT))
It read them as words. There is a way to have it spell alphanumerically, but
inventing a screen reader friendly way transcription would be better. I know
I can use some of the placing terms like labial and dental, but I think I'll
need to invent terms, like there is a vocal house, as oppose to voice box,
so they could have a vocal house fricative. So would I use a generator to
transcribe words? I'm not sure if I could do it manually.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of H. S. Teoh
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 11:48:01PM -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
wrote:
> I'm not sure either. Yemorans have a complex vocal system, and there
> are speaking hairs and a vocal . Maybe they have a glottal stop. Given
> that Yemorans can't eat and talk at the same time, they have two
> mouths. The mouths don't open at the same time. The outer and inner
> mouths aren't visible at the same time. There are also three breathing
> forms, normal, conversational, and eating.
Wow. Sounds like you may need to invent your own system, if the native
speakers of your language have such fundamental differences in their
vocal apparatus. Though you probably still want to use some kind of
adaptation of IPA for the sake of the rest of us, so that we have some
kind of reference point to go on.
> My screen reader just reads the letters, and I have textbooks that
> describe the symbols, but the reader finds it a bit difficult, and I
> still can't visualize what they look like. For example, some symbol
> may looks like a small U, and I don't think Braille and print U's look
> like. How does this conlang sampa site work, looks like it has a
> converter.
[...]
Hmm. Maybe it might help if you learn the ASCII transcriptions of the
IPA symbols? Does your screen reader handle ASCII symbols well? On this
list, we like to use CXS (Conlang X-Sampa). Unfortunately I don't know
if there are any resources currently that specifically key CXS to audio
sounds just yet. For example, here's a snippet of CXS from my conlang
Tatari Faran:
["san ts)E . mi"nasa "tE"kE ?aj . mi"nejn sej "si:]
Here are the symbols used. Some symbols are digraphs or trigraphs, due
to the limited inventory of ASCII characters; so such sequences should
be regarded as a single unit.
1. The double quote ["] represents primary stress;
2. The small letter [s] represents the alveolar fricative (same as the
English S);
3. The small letter [a] represents open front unrounded cardinal vowel;
4. The trigraph [ts)] (that's small T, small S, and right parenthesis)
represents the unvoiced alveolar affricate;
5. The capital letter [E] represents the open mid unrounded vowel;
6. The small letters [m] and [n] represent, respectively, the bilabial
and alveolar nasal stops (i.e., the English M and N);
7. The small letter [i] represents the close front unrounded vowel (i.e.
how most English dialects pronounce EE, such as in "seek", except
that it is short);
8. The small letter [t] represents the unaspirated alveolar stop (like
the English T in the middle of a word, but not at the beginning);
9. The question mark [?] represents the glottal stop;
10. The small letter [j] represents the palatal approximant (like the
English Y);
11. The small letter [e] represents the close-mid front unrounded vowel;
12. The colon [:] represents length; so [i:] (small I followed by colon)
means a long vowel, like the English EE.
Hmm, come to think of it, your screen reader may not handle this very
well either, if it tries to read consecutive letters as words rather
than individual characters. Unless there is a way to tell it to spell
out every letter/symbol?
Maybe we should invent a screen-reader-friendly transcription of IPA! :)
Like with spaces between every symbol so that it doesn't try to
pronounce consecutive symbols as a word, or using only capital letters
to make it pronounce each letter, etc..
T
--
Amateurs built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2m. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 10:23 pm ((PDT))
Great!
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of H. S. Teoh
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 10:02:30PM -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
[...]
> Maybe we should invent a screen-reader-friendly transcription of IPA! :)
> Like with spaces between every symbol so that it doesn't try to
> pronounce consecutive symbols as a word, or using only capital letters
> to make it pronounce each letter, etc..
[...]
P.S. I don't know which screen reader you use, but I found the following
webpage that describes how to make the JAWS screen reader work correctly
with IPA symbols:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/blogs/gotunicode/2008/09/getting-jaws-61-t
o-recognize-e.html
Maybe this might help?
T
--
Debian GNU/Linux: Cray on your desktop.
Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________
2n. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 10:28 pm ((PDT))
Yes, I think so. Thanks.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of H. S. Teoh
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 10:02:30PM -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
[...]
> Maybe we should invent a screen-reader-friendly transcription of IPA! :)
> Like with spaces between every symbol so that it doesn't try to
> pronounce consecutive symbols as a word, or using only capital letters
> to make it pronounce each letter, etc..
[...]
P.S. I don't know which screen reader you use, but I found the following
webpage that describes how to make the JAWS screen reader work correctly
with IPA symbols:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/blogs/gotunicode/2008/09/getting-jaws-61-t
o-recognize-e.html
Maybe this might help?
T
--
Debian GNU/Linux: Cray on your desktop.
Messages in this topic (14)
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