There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Phonetic Transcription
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1b. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Roger Mills
1c. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Distribution of phonemes in lexicon
From: H. S. Teoh
2b. Re: Distribution of phonemes in lexicon
From: Roger Mills
2c. Re: Distribution of phonemes in lexicon
From: H. S. Teoh
3. "L'Aventuros d'Alis in Marvoland" (Alice in Neo) published by Everty
From: Michael Everson
4a. Re: Phonetic Transcription
From: Padraic Brown
5. Translation: Christmas songs in May
From: Roger Mills
Messages
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1a. Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 11:02 pm ((PDT))
I have a later version of Jaws, than the article requires, and a newer
computer. I couldn't find the file I need on my hard drive.
Thanks, though. Maybe I'll contact the author.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
Messages in this topic (18)
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1b. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 2, 2013 7:20 am ((PDT))
--- On Wed, 5/1/13, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
How can something be pronounced differently than how it sounds? How it
sounds is how it's pronounced.
I think you must be misunderstanding a fundamental concept here, but I'm
not sure what it is.
==========================================
RM That was my first reaction to Nicole's msg..... Also, which syllable is
stressed? Is "saah" supposed to represent a long [a]? or just "regular [a] or
[A]? In my "fauxnetics" that would just be "sah". "suh" clearly means a
schwa sound, I suppose, and implies stess on the "bree(sc)e" syllable. Are both
"breese" and "breece" supposed to rhyme with "Greece"? If not, what difference
does she mean by using 's' in one, 'c' in the other?
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Sabrice is pronounced differently than how it sounds. It may be spelled
> differently depending on village and city.
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
>
> --- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> > On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> > -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe words etc
> > for Yardish.
> > > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> > transcription the way
> > > it sounds?
> > >
> > > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh breese
> > > but it's pronounced saah breece.
>
> So, which is it?
>
> > The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> > (International
> > Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions to
> > transcribe
> > sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters to
> > sounds in
> > English spelling is very complex and often not consistent,
> > and also the
> > actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> > regional dialect.
>
> All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many YAEPT-fests can attest,
> for any claim about a sound, there are at least three different, divergent
> and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the sound, plus an
> additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong, and then twelve
> more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further twelve on the
> way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in to remind us
> that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so the other 20
> subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and Aussies will
> get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans. Pretty soon,
> every country and language in the world will have weighed in on the
> original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up 527 different
> ways to pronounce "a".
>
> The point being, you can certainly say that a word is pronounced "sah
> breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece" pronounced!?
>
> > You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
> >
> > To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site helpful
> > (it has audio
> > files to go with each symbol):
> >
> > http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
>
> For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA sounds at
> Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no problem playing
> these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I think.
>
> > For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> > helpful:
> >
> > http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
>
> Padraic
>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (18)
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1c. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 2, 2013 7:37 am ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 5/2/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I'm not sure either. Yemorans have a complex vocal system, and there are
> speaking hairs and a vocal . Maybe they have a glottal stop.
Probably not -- that's an artifact of a human-like vocal apparatus. It
requires the speaker having the ability to close the glottiis. Yemorans
might have a similar sounding phoneme, though.
> Given that Yemorans can't eat and talk at the same time, they have two
> mouths. The mouths don't open at the same time. The outer and inner
> mouths aren't visible at the same time.
Weird and womderful!
> There are also three breathing forms, normal, conversational, and
> eating.
I think these roughly correspond to how we breathe when resting, talking
and eating.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Distribution of phonemes in lexicon
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 1, 2013 11:21 pm ((PDT))
Recently, while trying to decide what kind of writing system Tatari
Faran should have, I went through the entire lexicon and catalogued all
attested syllables. The idea is that instead of arbitrarily flipping a
coin for the type of writing system to adopt, I should look for patterns
in the currently-attested syllables and see if they suggest what kind of
system the san faran would have invented.
TF has a rather simple syllabic structure: all words are of the form
(CV(N))*(F) where C = any consonant, N is a nasal (/m/ or /n/), and F is
the smaller set of allowable final consonants. V is any vowel or glide.
So this makes cataloguing rather simple, if a bit tedious.
And sure enough, some interesting trends arose! The most prominent
"discovery" is that the most frequent syllables are of the form Ca, Ci,
Cu, that is, a consonant paired with an apical vowel. Ce and Cai are
less frequent, but comparable (though the distribution varies greatly
depending on C). /o/ (which is [O]) is in fact extremely rare as far as
occurrences in words are concerned, though it crops up in the neuter
case particles that in any non-trivial text would occur everywhere (IOW
it rarely occurs in words, but the few words containing it are very
frequent).
The single most frequent syllable, by quite a large margin, is /da/
(which is [da] word-initially and [4a] word-medially (spelled _ra_ in
the Roman orthography to reflect the allophonic switch to the alveolar
tap)), which I found quite surprising.
The most common vowel following a consonant is /a/, except in the case
of the glottal stop, where /i/ beats /a/ by a few counts.
There are also some interesting distribution asymmetries: /ai/ following
a glottal stop has a lower frequency than /u/, but following /n/ it is
almost as common as /i/, and following /t/ it is *more* common than /i/.
Other vowels and glides count for the minority of occurrences pretty
much in all cases (this includes consonants in syllabic codas).
What does the distribution of phonemes in yall's conlangs look like?
In any case, this distribution suggests that TF's native writing system
should be a kind of abugida-like system, in which Ca, Ci, and Cu have
dedicated glyphs, and Ce, Cai, Co, and others should use diacritics to
modify Ca, Ci, or Cu. The writing will be vertical, so there will be
left-diacritics (dextrocritics) and right-diacritics (aristocritics --
technically "aristerocritics" but that's too ... bureaucratic :-P).
Currently, I'm thinking something like:
- Caa = Ca + length_mark
- Ce = Ca + e-diacritic
- Cei = Ca + e-diacritic + length_mark (/ei/ is considered to be long /e/)
- Cii = Ci + length mark
- Co = Ca + o-diacritic
- Cue = Cu + ue-diacritic (/ue/ = [M])
- Cuu = Cu + length mark
- Cau = Ca + w-aristocritic (since /au/ is pronounced [ao] or [aw])
- Cua = Ca + w-dextrocritic (since /ua/ is pronounced [wa])
- Cui = Cu + i-aristocritic (/ui/ = [uj])
- Ciu = Cu + i-dextrocritic (/iu/ = [ju])
- Cai = Ca + i-aristocritic (/ai/ = [aj])
- Cia = Ca + i-dextrocritic (/ia/ = [ja])
Syllable-final /m/ and /n/ will have their own diacritics as well,
perhaps the same glyph as dextrocritic for /m/ and aristocritic for /n/.
Final consonants, which can only be [p], [t], [?], [m], [n], [f], and
[s], can probably be written as a ligature of the word-break glyph with
a reduced form of the corresponding Ca glyph, or, in the case of [m] and
[n], simply as the word-break glyph modified by the /m/ or /n/
diacritic.
The actual glyphs haven't been decided yet, though I have already
doodled some pictographs that I plan to reduce into mostly-horizontal
glyphs that can then be stacked on top of each other to form the
writing. I haven't decided yet whether writing direction will be top to
bottom or bottom to top; bottom-to-top looks appealing right now 'cos I
envision the writing to look something like a tree trunk with diacritic
"leaves" and "branches" poking out from the sides. Either that, or it
would be carved/drawn on tree trunks / pillars, totem-pole style. :-P
T
--
WINDOWS = Will Install Needless Data On Whole System -- CompuMan
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Distribution of phonemes in lexicon
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 2, 2013 6:59 am ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 5/2/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
(No real RM comments until quite far down.)
Recently, while trying to decide what kind of writing system Tatari
Faran should have, I went through the entire lexicon and catalogued all
attested syllables. The idea is that instead of arbitrarily flipping a
coin for the type of writing system to adopt, I should look for patterns
in the currently-attested syllables and see if they suggest what kind of
system the san faran would have invented.
TF has a rather simple syllabic structure: all words are of the form
(CV(N))*(F) where C = any consonant, N is a nasal (/m/ or /n/), and F is
the smaller set of allowable final consonants. V is any vowel or glide.
So this makes cataloguing rather simple, if a bit tedious.
And sure enough, some interesting trends arose! The most prominent
"discovery" is that the most frequent syllables are of the form Ca, Ci,
Cu, that is, a consonant paired with an apical vowel. Ce and Cai are
less frequent, but comparable (though the distribution varies greatly
depending on C). /o/ (which is [O]) is in fact extremely rare as far as
occurrences in words are concerned, though it crops up in the neuter
case particles that in any non-trivial text would occur everywhere (IOW
it rarely occurs in words, but the few words containing it are very
frequent).
The single most frequent syllable, by quite a large margin, is /da/
(which is [da] word-initially and [4a] word-medially (spelled _ra_ in
the Roman orthography to reflect the allophonic switch to the alveolar
tap)), which I found quite surprising.
The most common vowel following a consonant is /a/, except in the case
of the glottal stop, where /i/ beats /a/ by a few counts.
There are also some interesting distribution asymmetries: /ai/ following
a glottal stop has a lower frequency than /u/, but following /n/ it is
almost as common as /i/, and following /t/ it is *more* common than /i/.
Other vowels and glides count for the minority of occurrences pretty
much in all cases (this includes consonants in syllabic codas).
What does the distribution of phonemes in yall's conlangs look like?
=================================
RM Aargh. I have no idea, though I've been meaning to try figuring some out, in
view of this recent thread. But it takes time.......
======================================
In any case, this distribution suggests that TF's native writing system
should be a kind of abugida-like system, in which Ca, Ci, and Cu have
dedicated glyphs, and Ce, Cai, Co, and others should use diacritics to
modify Ca, Ci, or Cu. The writing will be vertical, so there will be
left-diacritics (dextrocritics) and right-diacritics (aristocritics --
technically "aristerocritics" but that's too ... bureaucratic :-P).
============================
Nice terminologies!! Must st..... adopt.
============================
Currently, I'm thinking something like:
- Caa = Ca + length_mark
- Ce = Ca + e-diacritic
- Cei = Ca + e-diacritic + length_mark (/ei/ is considered to be long /e/)
- Cii = Ci + length mark
- Co = Ca + o-diacritic
- Cue = Cu + ue-diacritic (/ue/ = [M])
- Cuu = Cu + length mark
=====================================
OK on those; but: how common is "ue" [M], is it phonemic?? Not worth having its
own diacritic???
========================================
- Cau = Ca + w-aristocritic (since /au/ is pronounced [ao] or [aw])
- Cua = Ca + w-dextrocritic (since /ua/ is pronounced [wa])
- Cui = Cu + i-aristocritic (/ui/ = [uj])
- Ciu = Cu + i-dextrocritic (/iu/ = [ju])
- Cai = Ca + i-aristocritic (/ai/ = [aj])
- Cia = Ca + i-dextrocritic (/ia/ = [ja])
==========================================
Basically I don't see a problem with those except-- when there are final
nasals; then you're going to end up with two dextro- or aristo-critics. Not
Good.
Maybe for the iu, ia, ua 's you should consider a "palatalize/labialize"
modification of some sort to the C character? That's what I did in the Gwr
system.
=============================================
Syllable-final /m/ and /n/ will have their own diacritics as well,
perhaps the same glyph as dextrocritic for /m/ and aristocritic for /n/.
========================================
RM No me gusta. IMPO they should be distinct critics, perhaps based on the
basic /m, n/ characters----- OR---- on the general questions of Finals, why not
just use the basic character with a "vowel-killer" diacritic. There's a
Sanskrity name for that, which I forget. In Dutch they call it a "dooder"....
If you haven't already, you might take a look at my Gwr writing system, which
is not dissimilar. http://cinduworld.tripod.com/prelim_gwr.htm Go to _section
3_ (The writing system) which has a link to the pdf.
============================================
Final consonants, which can only be [p], [t], [?], [m], [n], [f], and
[s], can probably be written as a ligature of the word-break glyph with
a reduced form of the corresponding Ca glyph, or, in the case of [m] and
[n], simply as the word-break glyph modified by the /m/ or /n/
diacritic.
The actual glyphs haven't been decided yet, though I have already
doodled some pictographs that I plan to reduce into mostly-horizontal
glyphs that can then be stacked on top of each other to form the
writing. I haven't decided yet whether writing direction will be top to
bottom or bottom to top; bottom-to-top looks appealing right now 'cos I
envision the writing to look something like a tree trunk with diacritic
"leaves" and "branches" poking out from the sides. Either that, or it
would be carved/drawn on tree trunks / pillars, totem-pole style. :-P
T
--
WINDOWS = Will Install Needless Data On Whole System -- CompuMan
Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: Distribution of phonemes in lexicon
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 2, 2013 8:22 am ((PDT))
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 06:59:52AM -0700, Roger Mills wrote:
> --- On Thu, 5/2/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> (No real RM comments until quite far down.)
> Recently, while trying to decide what kind of writing system Tatari
> Faran should have, I went through the entire lexicon and catalogued
> all attested syllables. The idea is that instead of arbitrarily
> flipping a coin for the type of writing system to adopt, I should look
> for patterns in the currently-attested syllables and see if they
> suggest what kind of system the san faran would have invented.
[...]
> What does the distribution of phonemes in yall's conlangs look like?
> =================================
> RM Aargh. I have no idea, though I've been meaning to try figuring
> some out, in view of this recent thread. But it takes time.......
> ======================================
Yeah when I started doing this I had no idea how long it would take.
After all, TF's lexicon is currently only a little over a thousand
entries, and what could be so hard about breaking words up into
syllables, right? Heh, if I only knew. It took me a good three days of
staying up late and getting up early to get through it all (many more
hours than I had anticipated).
In retrospect, I should've written a script to do the segmentation and
classification for me (I already manage the lexicon via a perl script
that is also the basis for the lexicon search engine on my website).
> In any case, this distribution suggests that TF's native writing
> system should be a kind of abugida-like system, in which Ca, Ci, and
> Cu have dedicated glyphs, and Ce, Cai, Co, and others should use
> diacritics to modify Ca, Ci, or Cu. The writing will be vertical, so
> there will be left-diacritics (dextrocritics) and right-diacritics
> (aristocritics -- technically "aristerocritics" but that's too ...
> bureaucratic :-P).
> ============================
> Nice terminologies!! Must st..... adopt.
> ============================
Heh, reminds me of Tom Lehrer's introduction to "Lobachevsky"...
> Currently, I'm thinking something like:
>
> - Caa = Ca + length_mark
> - Ce = Ca + e-diacritic
> - Cei = Ca + e-diacritic + length_mark (/ei/ is considered to be long /e/)
> - Cii = Ci + length mark
> - Co = Ca + o-diacritic
> - Cue = Cu + ue-diacritic (/ue/ = [M])
> - Cuu = Cu + length mark
> =====================================
> OK on those; but: how common is "ue" [M], is it phonemic?? Not worth
> having its own diacritic???
> ========================================
Yes, [M] is phonemic. It's not particularly common, but does occur in
certain common words like _asuen_ [?asMn] "younger brother", _kuen_
[kMn] "tree", etc..
> - Cau = Ca + w-aristocritic (since /au/ is pronounced [ao] or [aw])
> - Cua = Ca + w-dextrocritic (since /ua/ is pronounced [wa])
> - Cui = Cu + i-aristocritic (/ui/ = [uj])
> - Ciu = Cu + i-dextrocritic (/iu/ = [ju])
> - Cai = Ca + i-aristocritic (/ai/ = [aj])
> - Cia = Ca + i-dextrocritic (/ia/ = [ja])
> ==========================================
> Basically I don't see a problem with those except-- when there are
> final nasals; then you're going to end up with two dextro- or
> aristo-critics. Not Good.
True. I was thinking of a conventional stacking order for them, though.
> Maybe for the iu, ia, ua 's you should consider a
> "palatalize/labialize" modification of some sort to the C character?
> That's what I did in the Gwr system.
Yeah, the w-critics and i-critics could become ligatures of some sort,
perhaps.
> =============================================
> Syllable-final /m/ and /n/ will have their own diacritics as well,
> perhaps the same glyph as dextrocritic for /m/ and aristocritic for
> /n/.
> ========================================
>
> RM No me gusta. IMPO they should be distinct critics, perhaps based on
> the basic /m, n/ characters----- OR---- on the general questions of
> Finals, why not just use the basic character with a "vowel-killer"
> diacritic. There's a Sanskrity name for that, which I forget. In Dutch
> they call it a "dooder"....
Yeah, but I was thinking the san faran probably would treat
syllable-coda /m/ and /n/ as part of the syllable, so if anything I'd
have them as extensions/ligatures to the base CV glyph.
> If you haven't already, you might take a look at my Gwr writing
> system, which is not dissimilar.
> http://cinduworld.tripod.com/prelim_gwr.htm Go to _section 3_ (The
> writing system) which has a link to the pdf.
> ============================================
[...]
I like your idea of having final consonants represent VC instead of CV!
I think I'll st... adopt that idea. ;) So a final syllable like _kan_
would be written as _ka_ + _an_. The vowels have to match, as a
convention. In the case of modified vowels, as in _kuen_, the vowel
diacritic could sit between the two glyphs rather than clearly belonging
to one.
So a word like _kueharan_ could look something like:
ka + ue
ha
da
an
(/da/ == /ra/ in medial positions.)
Whereas _tsiutuen_ would look something like:
i+ tsu
ta
+ue
an
(the +ue diacritic sits midline between _ta_ and _an_).
T
--
Nobody is perfect. I am Nobody. -- pepoluan, GKC forum
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. "L'Aventuros d'Alis in Marvoland" (Alice in Neo) published by Everty
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 2, 2013 3:15 am ((PDT))
Evertype would like to announce the publication of Ralph Midgley's translation
of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland into Neo, L'Aventuros d'Alis in
Marvoland. The book uses John Tenniel's classic illustrations. A page with
links to Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk is available at
http://www.evertype.com/books/alice-neu.html . Bookstores can order copies at a
discount from the publisher.
>From the Introduction:
Lewis Carroll sar plumnam. Charles Lutwidge Dodgson sir lo vera nam del autor,
ki sir profesor de matematio she Christ Church, Oxford. Dodgson ensir et
istorel lo 4. Jul nel anyo 1862 van il fir un jit in ropabatel ol flum Thames
in Oxford, kompanat pel Rev. Robinson Duckworth, kon Alice Liddell (isanya),
fel del Dekan de Christ Church, e la du soros, notye: Lorina (istreanya) ed
Edith (otanya). Sar evidenta dal poem al enso del libro, ke lo tre yuninos
askir Dodgson rakonti a zel un istorel. Toprime, epete ezitanda, il ensir en
rakonti a zel lo prima versyon. Totye nel texto del libro, ki sir ende publikat
nel anyo 1865, il riferar a zel mulyes nel libro, mo lesmode semiskelat.
Arturo Alfandari sir nasat in Italyo lo 8. Jun 1888, e laborir as exporter, pre
sirvir as belga diplomat. Nel anyo 1937, van parir ke un guer sir neevibla,
Alfandari decidir ke il vir fi somo po elpi kambi lo perspektivos del komunio
internasyona tange lo viv generale, plu pekule meze komunikilo, ke tos pur
uti. Alfandari, ki bone spir sep linguos, examir Esperanto, mo krir ke it sar
tro komplikat; konseke il ensir inventi sa propa linguo ki sir plu simpla e plu
regla, kon radik-vortos plu kurta. Nel anyo 1961, il publikir un manual ligalat
det linguo internasyona titlat Neo, ke Paul Rasquin deskribir as lo natura
devolvo noevibla de Esperanto. Aldo Lavagnini it an deskribir as un mezo
radika e satisfa del riformo de Esperanto, ki pur si axeptat pel Esperantistos
as simplazo de za linguo.
Arturo Alfandari promovir Neo meze un grup namat Amikos de Neo, ed evente
fondir lAkademio de Neo, Mo il mortir lo 1. Meyo nel anyo 1969. Es il ur vivat
plu longatempe, Neo forse ur at plu amikos qam nun. Po mi, as publiker de
Carroll, mi sar ixa par introduki Neo al admireros de Marvoland.
--Michael Everson
=====
Lewis Carroll is a pen-name: Charles Lutwidge Dodgson was the authors real
name and he was lecturer in Mathematics in Christ Church, Oxford. Dodgson began
the story on 4 July 1862, when he took a journey in a rowing boat on the river
Thames in Oxford together with the Reverend Robinson Duckworth, with Alice
Liddell (ten years of age) the daughter of the Dean of Christ Church, and with
her two sisters, Lorina (thirteen years of age), and Edith (eight years of
age). As is clear from the poem at the beginning of the book, the three girls
asked Dodgson for a story and reluctantly at first he began to tell the first
version of the story to them. There are many half-hidden references made to the
five of them throughout the text of the book itself, which was published
finally in 1865.
Arturo Alfandari was born in Italy on 8 June 1888, and worked as an exporter
before serving as a Belgian diplomat. In 1937 when it looked as though war was
inevitable, Alfandari decided that he wanted to do something to help to change
peoples outlook on life, and to do so by making available a means of
communication which everyone could use. A polyglot, Alfandari examined
Esperanto, but believed that it was too complicated, and he set about devising
a language which was simpler and more regular, with shorter root words. In 1961
he published a bound manual of his international language Neo, which was
described by Paul Rasquin as the natural and inevitable further development of
Esperanto and by Aldo Lavagnini as a radical and satisfying way for a reform
of Esperanto, which could have been accepted by Esperantists even as a
simplification of their language.
Arturo Alfandari promoted Neo through a group called Amikos de Neo Friends of
Neo and eventually formed the Neo Academy. But he died on 1 May 1969; if he
had lived longer, Neo may have had more friends than it does. For my part as a
Carrollian publisher I am pleased to be able to introduce Neo to the admirers
of Wonderland.
==========
Michaael Everson
Evertype, http://alice-in-wonderland-books.com
Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Phonetic Transcription
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 2, 2013 7:31 am ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 5/2/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Sabrice is pronounced differently than how it sounds.
Yes, this doesn't make any sense. As Patrick said, these turn out to be
the same thing. It's like with the English word pen -- everybody spells
it "P E N", but some people pronounce the E differently. Some folks say
/pEn/, some folks say /pIn/ and still others say /pijEn/. Thus, they are
pronounced and sound differently according to dialect.
I too am not certain of where the confusion lies here...
> It may be spelled differently depending on village and city.
This of course makes perfect sense. Different cities and villages could
very well have their own dialects or their own accents (slightly different
realisations of roughly the same dialect). People within any given
dialect community will probably also use different registers of language
depending on their social situation, for example, as a matter of politeness
or social stratification.
Also, some dialects may use entirely different words for the same thing,
even if everyone speaks what is accounted the "same language". For example,
in the US, "pop", "soda", "coke" and "tonic" are all generic words for
carbonated drinks. Your own dialect / accent community will determine which
word you would tend to use. It will also determine your level of confusion
if you're coming into an area that uses a different word than you are
used to.
Padraic
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]]
> On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 7:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phonetic Transcription
>
> --- On Wed, 5/1/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > From: H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Phonetic Transcription
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Wednesday, May 1, 2013, 7:00 PM
> > On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 06:33:13PM
> > -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> > > I need to know how to phonetically transcribe
> words etc
> > for Yardish.
> > > Do I put slashes in between? And do I spell the
> > transcription the way
> > > it sounds?
> > >
> > > For example, the word sabrice sounds like suh
> breese
> > > but it's pronounced saah breece.
>
> So, which is it?
>
> > The best way to transcribe pronunciation is to use IPA
> > (International
> > Phonetic Alphabet). Using English spelling conventions
> to
> > transcribe
> > sounds is unreliable, because the mapping of letters
> to
> > sounds in
> > English spelling is very complex and often not
> consistent,
> > and also the
> > actual pronunciation of English differs according to
> > regional dialect.
>
> All true. Anyone who has witnessed one of our many
> YAEPT-fests can attest,
> for any claim about a sound, there are at least three
> different, divergent
> and entirely valid opinions as to how to pronounce the
> sound, plus an
> additional six opinions on why the first three are wrong,
> and then twelve
> more opinions on the way things ought to be, and a further
> twelve on the
> way things used to be. Then someone will invariably pop in
> to remind us
> that the original poster is from New Zealand, not the US, so
> the other 20
> subthreads are moot. And not to be outdone, the Brits and
> Aussies will
> get in on the action, then the South Africans and Jamaicans.
> Pretty soon,
> every country and language in the world will have weighed in
> on the
> original claim, and when all is said and done, we'll add up
> 527 different
> ways to pronounce "a".
>
> The point being, you can certainly say that a word is
> pronounced "sah
> breece" -- but the question is begged, how is "sah breece"
> pronounced!?
>
> > You can find information on the IPA from Wikipedia:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
> >
> > To learn the actual sounds, you may find this site
> helpful
> > (it has audio
> > files to go with each symbol):
> >
> > http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
>
> For what it's worth, most of the articles relating to IPA
> sounds at
> Wikipedia have links to sound files. There should be no
> problem playing
> these files on any newer computer. Very handy articles, I
> think.
>
> > For using IPA on this mailing list, you may find this
> > helpful:
> >
> > http://www.theiling.de/ipa/
>
> Padraic
>
>
Messages in this topic (18)
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5. Translation: Christmas songs in May
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 2, 2013 8:17 am ((PDT))
A bit of whimsy. Don't know why this was going thru my head this morning:
Gwr.
lu-H doq-L o-H trang-M how-F leN-M dr-L
ki-L ye-M hing-hing-M how-F
Lu-do? that red-nose (k.o. animal)
to him very-shiny nose...
More to come.....
Messages in this topic (1)
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