There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Language Creation at GenCon
From: Casey Borders
1b. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: Casey Borders
1d. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1e. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: neo gu
1f. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: Casey Borders
1g. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: neo gu
1h. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: Casey Borders
1i. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2a. Re: Conaccents.
From: H. S. Teoh
3a. Prairie Dog Language
From: Gary Shannon
3b. Re: Prairie Dog Language
From: MorphemeAddict
4a. Re: Morpheme Classification
From: neo gu
5a. Re: NATLANG: Nominatives in Southern Sierra Miwok
From: Anthony Miles
6. A conundrum
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
Messages
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1a. Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "Casey Borders" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 9:49 am ((PDT))
This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
should definitely stop by!
*
*
*Casey Borders*
Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 11:24 am ((PDT))
Will it be online?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Casey Borders
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Language Creation at GenCon
This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
should definitely stop by!
*
*
*Casey Borders*
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "Casey Borders" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 11:41 am ((PDT))
Most likely not but I could try to do an audio recording if the presenter
is up for it.
On May 19, 2013 2:24 PM, "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Will it be online?
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Casey Borders
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:49 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Language Creation at GenCon
>
> This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
> https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
> https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
>
> For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
> tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
> Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
> should definitely stop by!
> *
> *
> *Casey Borders*
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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1d. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 11:47 am ((PDT))
Thanks, that would be greatly appreciated. Even though I'm using a guide, it
would still be good, and may helpcomplete the guide, as it may offer ideas.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Casey Borders
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Most likely not but I could try to do an audio recording if the presenter
is up for it.
On May 19, 2013 2:24 PM, "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Will it be online?
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Casey Borders
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:49 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Language Creation at GenCon
>
> This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language
(
> https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
> https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
>
> For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
> tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
> Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
> should definitely stop by!
> *
> *
> *Casey Borders*
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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1e. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 3:33 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:49:11 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
Your link goes to a sign-in page.
>For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
>tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
>Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
>should definitely stop by!
>*
>*
>*Casey Borders*
Messages in this topic (9)
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1f. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "Casey Borders" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 3:43 pm ((PDT))
Sorry about that. I'll copy and paste the descriptions.
Language Creation:
Fictional worlds often include languages to make their setting more
believable. This seminar will help you create your own language, suitable
for adding color to a game or novel.
Esperanto:
Learn Esperanto, the international language, spoken by people worldwide.
I'll teach the basics of the language, show you how and where it's used
(*cough* William Shatner *cough*) and give resources for further study.
Open up a world of movies, music, and literature you never knew existed.
You'll come back from GenCon as a polyglot! Complete newbies welcome, as
are experienced Esperantists.
On May 19, 2013 6:33 PM, "neo gu" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:49:11 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
Your link goes to a sign-in page.
>For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
>tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
>Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
>should definitely stop by!
>*
>*
>*Casey Borders*
Messages in this topic (9)
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1g. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 3:48 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, 19 May 2013 18:43:21 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]> wrote:
>Sorry about that. I'll copy and paste the descriptions.
Thanks! Do you know who's involved in the Language Creation seminar?
>Language Creation:
>Fictional worlds often include languages to make their setting more
>believable. This seminar will help you create your own language, suitable
>for adding color to a game or novel.
>
>Esperanto:
>Learn Esperanto, the international language, spoken by people worldwide.
>I'll teach the basics of the language, show you how and where it's used
>(*cough* William Shatner *cough*) and give resources for further study.
>Open up a world of movies, music, and literature you never knew existed.
>You'll come back from GenCon as a polyglot! Complete newbies welcome, as
>are experienced Esperantists.
>On May 19, 2013 6:33 PM, "neo gu" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:49:11 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>>This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
>>https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
>>https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
>
>Your link goes to a sign-in page.
>
>>For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
>>tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
>>Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
>>should definitely stop by!
>>*
>>*
>>*Casey Borders*
Messages in this topic (9)
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1h. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "Casey Borders" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 3:51 pm ((PDT))
I don't. I was very surprised to see the sessions. I plan on introducing
myself though!
On May 19, 2013 6:49 PM, "neo gu" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 May 2013 18:43:21 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Sorry about that. I'll copy and paste the descriptions.
>
> Thanks! Do you know who's involved in the Language Creation seminar?
>
> >Language Creation:
> >Fictional worlds often include languages to make their setting more
> >believable. This seminar will help you create your own language, suitable
> >for adding color to a game or novel.
> >
> >Esperanto:
> >Learn Esperanto, the international language, spoken by people worldwide.
> >I'll teach the basics of the language, show you how and where it's used
> >(*cough* William Shatner *cough*) and give resources for further study.
> >Open up a world of movies, music, and literature you never knew existed.
> >You'll come back from GenCon as a polyglot! Complete newbies welcome, as
> >are experienced Esperantists.
> >On May 19, 2013 6:33 PM, "neo gu" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:49:11 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a
> language (
> >>https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
> >>https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
> >
> >Your link goes to a sign-in page.
> >
> >>For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board
> /
> >>tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
> >>Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
> >>should definitely stop by!
> >>*
> >>*
> >>*Casey Borders*
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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1i. Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 4:03 pm ((PDT))
Thanks for that. Sounds good. Now I see why Tolkeen took ten years to
worldbuild, notthat I plan to take ten years, but it takes a while, and
especially since I have to get specialized formatted books.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Casey Borders
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Language Creation at GenCon
Sorry about that. I'll copy and paste the descriptions.
Language Creation:
Fictional worlds often include languages to make their setting more
believable. This seminar will help you create your own language, suitable
for adding color to a game or novel.
Esperanto:
Learn Esperanto, the international language, spoken by people worldwide.
I'll teach the basics of the language, show you how and where it's used
(*cough* William Shatner *cough*) and give resources for further study.
Open up a world of movies, music, and literature you never knew existed.
You'll come back from GenCon as a polyglot! Complete newbies welcome, as
are experienced Esperantists.
On May 19, 2013 6:33 PM, "neo gu" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:49:11 -0400, Casey Borders <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!
Your link goes to a sign-in page.
>For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
>tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
>Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
>should definitely stop by!
>*
>*
>*Casey Borders*
Messages in this topic (9)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Conaccents.
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 1:17 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 08:34:03AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
[...]
> > On 11 May 2013 08:33, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> If there are two NPs following the verb, the prosody changes again:
> >>
> >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan dei bata.
> >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan nei bata.
> >> 3SG CVY walk hut ORG village RCP FIN
> >> [tâ4a? sā tapà butá? keī misânan dej bata]
> >> He is walking from the hut to the village.
> >>
> >> There's a feature here I don't quite know how to represent in the
> >> IPA: the high pitch in the NP _misanan dei_ is pronounced higher
> >> than in the NP _buta' kei_. One might say that this sentence has 3
> >> peaks: at the beginning of the sentence with the first NP, falling
> >> into a valley at the verb _tapa_, then rising to a (lower) peak in
> >> _buta' kei_, then to a higher peak in _misanan dei_, then falling
> >> back to a low-pitch valley in the finalizer _bata_.
> >>
> >> Interestingly enough -- and this is what I've only recently noticed
> >> -- this prosodic contour means that the NP immediately before the
> >> finalizer receives more stress than the NP preceding it, which
> >> makes it more preferable to place an NP you want to emphasize in
> >> that position. So in the example above, "to the village" is
> >> emphasized; if we were to swap the two NPs following the verb, then
> >> it would be "from the hut" that would be emphasized. This would be
> >> the more unusual word order, since generally speaking, one would
> >> tend to emphasize the destination of an action more than its
> >> origin. IOW, prosody in TF has an effect on word order preference!
> >> I was quite happy to discover this emergent effect.
>
> Interesting! Do you think there's something similar to this in
> natlangs?
[...]
I don't know if this happens in any natlangs, but it seems likely that
something like that may have given rise to preference for certain word
orders in specific situations in languages that allow relatively free
word order, like Russian.
Now, my Russian isn't all that good, but I do notice that in
interrogative prosody ("question intonation" or something like that, I
think that's what they call it), you tend to want to put high pitch on
the word being questioned and give the rest of the sentence a drop in
pitch. Now obviously, if the word in question (har har) is following by
too long a trailing clause, this isn't going to work (you'd have a long
string of words in monotonous low pitch); so it seems that there's a
sweet spot where, within the constraints of grammar, you'd want to
arrange your words so that the characteristic high-low pitch drop
happens in the most convenient place -- not too far in front, but not
too near the end either. So there's at least some influence of prosody
on word order here, perhaps purely historical?
But a native speaker should fill in the fudged description here. :)
(And BTW I'm totally in love with Russian prosody, even if I'm rather
poor at it... it's just sooo quaint and expressive, even mellifluous.
Definitely not what I expected based on my wrong impressions of it from
the stereotypical caricatures you hear on TV & in movies.)
T
--
By understanding a machine-oriented language, the programmer will tend
to use a much more efficient method; it is much closer to reality. -- D.
Knuth
Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Prairie Dog Language
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 3:50 pm ((PDT))
http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/researcher-decodes-praire-dog-language-discovers-theyve-been-calling-people-fat.html
Researcher decodes prairie dog language, discovers they've been
talking about us (Video)
Interesting article and video.
--gary
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Prairie Dog Language
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 4:34 pm ((PDT))
The researcher talks about how many prairie dog calls (chatters, jump-yips,
et al.) aren't decipherable yet because there is no associated behavior to
give a clue to the meaning.
I wonder how much of human language has such related behavior. I suspect
that, in adults at least, it's not very much.
stevo
On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/researcher-decodes-praire-dog-language-discovers-theyve-been-calling-people-fat.html
>
> Researcher decodes prairie dog language, discovers they've been
> talking about us (Video)
>
> Interesting article and video.
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Morpheme Classification
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 4:09 pm ((PDT))
The current SSM3 documentation is up at
http://qiihoskeh.conlang.org/cl/aux/SSM3/S3Intro.htm
Any help with it is appreciated.
On Sat, 18 May 2013 00:48:39 -0400, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>SSM3 is coming along. What's not coming along very well is a coherent
>grammatical description. For example, I have several prefixes described as
>cases, which is how they sometimes act.
>
>do- genitive with o initial: afroqo odocko (Nom-dog Mod-Gen-boy) "the boy's
>dog"
>fe- allative with i initial: ifentiba (Sec-All-house) "to the house"
>
>But these can also be used with the e initial:
>
>afroqo edocko. (Nom-dog Vrb-belong_to-boy) "The dog belongs to the boy."
>uvi efentiba. (Erg-1S Vrb-go_to-house) "I'm going to the house."
>
>Temporal conjunctions are another example. Conjunctions appear as prefixes to
>the head of the subordinate clause, following the initial.
>
>te- "after":
>amriya evalse itelba ajhona.
>(Nom-Mary Vrb-Pst-dance Sec-after-sing Nom-John)
>"Mary danced after John sang."
>
>But te- is also the indefinite relative past tense prefix:
>etelba ajhona.
>(Vrb-IRP-sing Nom-John)
>"John has sung."
Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: NATLANG: Nominatives in Southern Sierra Miwok
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 4:09 pm ((PDT))
> I was browsing Wikipedia for interesting case structures, and I come across
> Southern Sierra Miwok, a language spoken by Native Americans in California.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Sierra_Miwok_language
>
> Southern Sierra Miwok has nine cases, divided into three groups: autonomous,
> subordinate, and possessive. Autonomous case suffixes are the last suffix on
> a word. Subordinate case suffixes must be followed by an autonomous case
> suffix. The possessive has two allomorphs, one autonomous, one subordinate.
>
> The autonomous case suffixes are Nominative, Accusative, Temporal, and
> Vocative.
>
> Nominative is used for the subject of the sentence, forms modifying the
> subject of a sentence (I guess 'adjective' is not a formal category in SSM),
> citation forms, predicative and coordinative constructions, and as the
> autonomous case when a subordinate case suffix is used.
>
> Accusative is used for the direct object, the indirect object in a
> ditransitive sentence (the example under Instrumental suggests a benefactive
> flavor), and an accusative of duration.
>
> Temporal is used with time words, location in time or space, although more
> broadly than an English speaker would expect, venturing into adverbial
> territory.
>
> The Vocative is used with terms of address.
>
> The subordinate case suffixes are Ablative, Allative, Locative, and
> Instrumental.
>
> Ablative is used for motion away from. The Ablative is followed by the
> Nominative, possibily the Accusative, and occassionally a specific prefinal
> suffix.
>
> Allative is used for motion towards, nearness, and locative functions. The
> Allative is followed by the Nominative, possibly the Accusative.
>
> Locative is used for locative functions (duplicating some functions of the
> Allative). The Locative is followed by the Nominative, sometimes a nominal
> suffix, and rarely a diminutive.
>
> Instrumental is used for instrumental (and comitative? "with" in the sentence
> is ambigious) functions and for the direct object in a ditransitive
> construction. (If someone remembers the name of this construction, please
> tell me!)
In languages with this type of ditransitive alignment, the direct object
of a monotransitive verb or the indirect object of a ditransitive verb
is called the primary object, and the direct object of a ditransitive
verb is called the secondary object. This ditransitive alignment is
often called "dechticetiative" (as opposed to "dative"); this
distinction is analogous to the distinction in monotransitive alignment
between accusative and ergative.
R: 'dechticetiative' was the word I was trying (and failing) to spell. In some
notes I have, the authors give up on the term 'dechticetiative' and just call
the system 'secondary object'. My Siye has a secondary object system in
ditransitive causative clauses (which Siye interprets more broadly than the
name might indicative) with imperfective aspect, but it does not use the
instrumental - it uses the dative-benefactive case for animates and the
dative-allative case for inanimates. The accusative-ergative split in Siye is
strongly attached to the aspect system, more rigourously so than any
Terrestrial tongue (the Simayamka are humanoid Martians, less human than Dejah
Thoris but more than Tars Tarkas).
Since I'm rewriting the syntax section in FrathWiki, I'm considering changing
the animate to the instrumental case, which seems more naturalistic.
Unfortunately, the instrumental case in Siye can only be used with inanimate
nouns, and the offensiveness of using the instrumental with an animate noun is
already established, so if I change it, the structure changes from NOUN + CASE
SUFFIX to (NOUN + POSSESSIVE CASE) + (INANIMATE NOUN + INSTRUMENTAL).
Currently, "I will show him the city" is
(le) _itu_ lusili elekopusumma",
but under this change it would become
"le _ine eki_ lusili elekopusumma" (muki? meki? tumki?)
'eki' could be either the word for 'thing' or the 3rd person inanimate pronoun
plus the instrumental, so one could read the sentence either as secondary
object or a double accusative. Since the verb only has one slot for an object
prefix, the 'primary' object, lusili, would still be primary.
Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________
6. A conundrum
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 19, 2013 4:37 pm ((PDT))
So, in the new language, I have a verb aŋi, which means to move around
or in the vicinity of a vast or amorphous destination. I had the idea
of modifying aŋi with the adverb mɛya (outwards), in order to make the
construction X aŋi Y mɛya mean make Y out of X, as in vuya aŋi amba
mɛya (make something out of nothing). Except, there is this other
verb, ɛmɛmɛ, which means to move in (and around) towards a source
(from any or all directions). And it occurs to me that a construction
like Y ɛmɛmɛ X eya (inwards) to mean make X into Y might be better.
For one thing, it puts the emphasis on Y, which means X can be
omitted. And vuya aŋi amba mɛya then becomes amba ɛmɛmɛ vuya eya (make
nothing into something), or even amba ɛmɛmɛ eya (make into something,
make something).
I think I like the second construction better, but I just wrote a text
using the first. Do I change it? Which construction do you like
better? How do you say this in your language?
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (1)
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