There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Grammatical complexity
From: Roger Mills
1b. Re: Grammatical complexity
From: Adam Walker
2.1. Re: Date and time on Cindu
From: Douglas Koller
3a. Re: Too simple to be derived?
From: Leonardo Castro
3b. Re: Too simple to be derived?
From: H. S. Teoh
4a. Ideopedia - a French collaborative encyclopedia of conlangs
From: Tony Harris
4b. Re: Ideopedia - a French collaborative encyclopedia of conlangs
From: Billy J.B.
5a. Re: New language sentence trial
From: Anthony Miles
6a. Re: Dieing Languages
From: Anthony Miles
6b. Re: Dieing Languages
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
Messages
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1a. Re: Grammatical complexity
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 23, 2013 7:10 pm ((PDT))
--- On Thu, 5/23/13, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
Okay here is an example of the sort of case marking -.m thinking of:
Tom-ag bet John-da hat-or father-gen money-pa Flicka-the race-tem.
Tom bet John, who wears the hat, father's money on Flicka during the race.
======================================
This isn't clear at all to me.......It seems to mean: Tom made a bet with John
concerning Flicka in the race. The bet was made with (somebody's) father's
money.
Whose father's money-- Tom's or John's?
How is "who wears the hat" relevant to anything? and where would it go in my
interpretation?
=======================================
Does this make a lick of sense? Or is this another of those things
that only work between my ears but fail utterly in the outside world?
Adam
Messages in this topic (18)
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1b. Re: Grammatical complexity
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 7:00 am ((PDT))
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 9:10 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Thu, 5/23/13, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Okay here is an example of the sort of case marking -.m thinking of:
>
> Tom-ag bet John-da hat-or father-gen money-pa Flicka-the race-tem.
>
> Tom bet John, who wears the hat, father's money on Flicka during the race.
> ======================================
>
> This isn't clear at all to me.......It seems to mean: Tom made a bet with
> John concerning Flicka in the race. The bet was made with (somebody's)
> father's money.
>
> Whose father's money-- Tom's or John's?
> How is "who wears the hat" relevant to anything? and where would it go in
> my interpretation?
> =======================================
>
>
Well, race is marked with temproal case so it's during the, or at the time
of the race. The sentence is a bit of a jumble since I was trying to fit
as many grammatical relationships into one sentence as possible to supply
George with his requested examples. I don't know that it's terribly
relevant whose father it is, but it could just as well be the speaker's
father. Context would be required as it would be in English. The hat bit
is in there to give an example of the ornative case in use, which was the
case that got this whole thread started in the first place, so while it's
probably the oddest bit in there, it was the most important to my purposes.
Adam
Messages in this topic (18)
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2.1. Re: Date and time on Cindu
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 2:22 am ((PDT))
> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 05:40:25 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Date and time on Cindu
> To: [email protected]
> OK, another year has rolled by, another Geburtstag, cumpleaños etc. and it's
> time to update you all. (NB I'm still here!!)
And we are all the richer therefor. Many happy returns of the day! Se zdídalths
techetneketh la öçkek nü!
Kou
Messages in this topic (29)
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3a. Re: Too simple to be derived?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 6:54 am ((PDT))
How would be "antiparticle" in your-PL languages?
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/5/22 H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>:
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 06:13:48PM -0400, Matthew George wrote:
>> The language that I'm working on makes a variety of distinctions among
>> negation, separating usages that English (and from your comments, many
>> other languages) group together.
>>
>> For example, one form of negation is equivalent to the logical 'not',
>> another to the logical 'anti'. In English, if we say we're unhappy or
>> not happy, that's almost always interpreted as meaning we're
>> unsatisfied or displeased. But if we describe a color as "not green",
>> no one assumes that the color must be red. In my conlang, 'not happy'
>> and 'anti-happy' are distinct - all concepts are negated in the same
>> way English negates color. There are also "not anti-state" and
>> "neither state nor anti-state" prefixes.
> [...]
>
> In Ebisédian, there is a distinction between absence and opposite, which
> in English is conflated in negation. Absence of wisdom is mere
> ignorance, for example, whereas anti-wisdom is active overthrowing of
> wisdom, the conscious choice of unwiseness. Absence of beauty is mere
> ordinary appearance, whereas anti-beauty is ugliness. The nullar number
> in nouns indicate only absence; whereas negation proper would indicate
> the presence of an antithesis of the noun referent, an arch-opponent, or
> an anti-matter evil-twin counterpart, as opposed to mere absence.
>
> In Tatari Faran, the distinction is not quite as clear-cut, though in
> general, similarly to Ebisédian, negation does not imply opposite.
> Saying someone is not pretty does not imply ugliness; in general a
> different adjective is used for opposites. For example:
>
> 1) tara' sei jui'in kakat.
> tara' sei jui'in kakat.
> 3SG CVY:FEM beautiful gaudy(FIN)
> She is beautiful. (The finalizer _kakat_ does not carry semantic
> content, only overtones.)
>
> 2) tara' sei jui'in beikakat.
> tara' sei jui'in bei-kakat.
> 3SG CVY:FEM beautiful NEG-gaudy(FIN)
> She is not beautiful.
>
> The sentence structure of (2) is interesting, as the negation marker
> only appears on the finalizer _kakat_, as though the first part of the
> sentence is saying that she *is* beautiful, yet the negated finalizer
> implies a failure at some point of the process of being beautiful,
> hence, an incomplete beauty, or falling short of actual beauty; the lack
> of beauty.
>
> Expressing the opposite uses a distinct, unrelated adjective:
>
> 3) tara' sei mopan kuta'
> 3SG CVY:FEM ugly deformed(FIN)
> She is ugly.
>
> Again, the finalizer does not actually carry semantic content, though
> its glossed meaning, as a native speaker would describe it, indicates
> that this is a rather forceful statement of anti-beauty, not merely a
> lack of beauty, but having some quality that opposes beauty.
>
>
> T
>
> --
> People say I'm indecisive, but I'm not sure about that. -- YHL, CONLANG
Messages in this topic (26)
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3b. Re: Too simple to be derived?
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 7:50 am ((PDT))
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:54:16AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> How would be "antiparticle" in your-PL languages?
[...]
Currently there's no such word in Ebisédian or Tatari Faran, but if I
were to coin such a word, I'd use the anti- derivation instead of the
not- (or un-) derivation. A no-particle (in Ebisédian) is a particle
that isn't there; an anti-particle is an opposite-particle that's there.
Indeed, the nullar number in Ebisédian is used to indicate absence, but
a different derivation is used for anti-. Thus, you have a distinction
between human(nullar) - meaning the absence of a human, and human(anti)
- meaning non-human, or unhuman, something opposed to human.
In Tatari Faran, in all likelihood a different root would be used (TF
tends to employ different roots rather than morphological derivation for
opposites).
> 2013/5/22 H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>:
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 06:13:48PM -0400, Matthew George wrote:
> >> The language that I'm working on makes a variety of distinctions among
> >> negation, separating usages that English (and from your comments, many
> >> other languages) group together.
> >>
> >> For example, one form of negation is equivalent to the logical 'not',
> >> another to the logical 'anti'. In English, if we say we're unhappy or
> >> not happy, that's almost always interpreted as meaning we're
> >> unsatisfied or displeased. But if we describe a color as "not green",
> >> no one assumes that the color must be red. In my conlang, 'not happy'
> >> and 'anti-happy' are distinct - all concepts are negated in the same
> >> way English negates color. There are also "not anti-state" and
> >> "neither state nor anti-state" prefixes.
> > [...]
> >
> > In Ebisédian, there is a distinction between absence and opposite, which
> > in English is conflated in negation. Absence of wisdom is mere
> > ignorance, for example, whereas anti-wisdom is active overthrowing of
> > wisdom, the conscious choice of unwiseness. Absence of beauty is mere
> > ordinary appearance, whereas anti-beauty is ugliness. The nullar number
> > in nouns indicate only absence; whereas negation proper would indicate
> > the presence of an antithesis of the noun referent, an arch-opponent, or
> > an anti-matter evil-twin counterpart, as opposed to mere absence.
> >
> > In Tatari Faran, the distinction is not quite as clear-cut, though in
> > general, similarly to Ebisédian, negation does not imply opposite.
> > Saying someone is not pretty does not imply ugliness; in general a
> > different adjective is used for opposites. For example:
> >
> > 1) tara' sei jui'in kakat.
> > tara' sei jui'in kakat.
> > 3SG CVY:FEM beautiful gaudy(FIN)
> > She is beautiful. (The finalizer _kakat_ does not carry semantic
> > content, only overtones.)
> >
> > 2) tara' sei jui'in beikakat.
> > tara' sei jui'in bei-kakat.
> > 3SG CVY:FEM beautiful NEG-gaudy(FIN)
> > She is not beautiful.
> >
> > The sentence structure of (2) is interesting, as the negation marker
> > only appears on the finalizer _kakat_, as though the first part of the
> > sentence is saying that she *is* beautiful, yet the negated finalizer
> > implies a failure at some point of the process of being beautiful,
> > hence, an incomplete beauty, or falling short of actual beauty; the lack
> > of beauty.
> >
> > Expressing the opposite uses a distinct, unrelated adjective:
> >
> > 3) tara' sei mopan kuta'
> > 3SG CVY:FEM ugly deformed(FIN)
> > She is ugly.
> >
> > Again, the finalizer does not actually carry semantic content, though
> > its glossed meaning, as a native speaker would describe it, indicates
> > that this is a rather forceful statement of anti-beauty, not merely a
> > lack of beauty, but having some quality that opposes beauty.
> >
> >
> > T
> >
> > --
> > People say I'm indecisive, but I'm not sure about that. -- YHL, CONLANG
T
--
In a world without fences, who needs Windows and Gates? -- Christian Surchi
Messages in this topic (26)
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4a. Ideopedia - a French collaborative encyclopedia of conlangs
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 8:57 am ((PDT))
I was browsing around on L'Atelier (a French-language forum about
conlanging) and just found this, which I thought I should share with the
group:
http://ideopedia.org
The introduction says:
Idéopédia est une encyclopédie collaborative francophone, qui traite
principalement des idéolangues (ou langues construites), des univers et
cultures imaginaires qui s'y rattachent ainsi que de leurs inventeurs.
Son objectif est de constituer une encyclopédie en langue française, qui
soit une référence dans le domaine de la création linguistique. Les
aspirations qui en résultent sont ensuite diverses, telles que : la
promotion de l'usage et de la création de langues à portée universelle
ou de systèmes de communication alternatifs, le référencement des
données paralinguistiques présentes dans la production artistique, ou
encore une diffusion de l'esthétique d'un Art linguistique encore méconnu.
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Ideopedia - a French collaborative encyclopedia of conlangs
Posted by: "Billy J.B." [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 9:00 am ((PDT))
Très cool. Great find!
On May 24, 2013 5:57 PM, "Tony Harris" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I was browsing around on L'Atelier (a French-language forum about
> conlanging) and just found this, which I thought I should share with the
> group:
>
> http://ideopedia.org
>
> The introduction says:
> Idéopédia est une encyclopédie collaborative francophone, qui traite
> principalement des idéolangues (ou langues construites), des univers et
> cultures imaginaires qui s'y rattachent ainsi que de leurs inventeurs.
>
> Son objectif est de constituer une encyclopédie en langue française, qui
> soit une référence dans le domaine de la création linguistique. Les
> aspirations qui en résultent sont ensuite diverses, telles que : la
> promotion de l'usage et de la création de langues à portée universelle ou
> de systèmes de communication alternatifs, le référencement des données
> paralinguistiques présentes dans la production artistique, ou encore une
> diffusion de l'esthétique d'un Art linguistique encore méconnu.
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: New language sentence trial
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 10:36 am ((PDT))
Send transmission
Amtoni Mayales nesakam me esupusumsuna.
Sorry for the top posting - it would be even more confusing if I put it below,
even farther away from the message to whfch I am replying. Perhaps the original
'go' turned into an auxiliary verb, quite likely the future. so the inflected
'go' originally had a broader meaning. Or 'go' is sliced differently than
English. Of course, 'go' could be grammatically an infinitve, a participle, a
gerundive, probably not a noun ...
Can you provide us with some contrastive sentences in other tenses? For
example, 'I went', 'I go', 'I will go', 'I am going', 'I have gone'. Where does
the negation for 'I did not go' go? I am assuming that this conlang is
tense-based, not aspect-based.
End transmission
'Go' could be in the infinitive if you want it to be; it just means that your
past tense is formed in an interesting way. But yes, it's more likely to be a
bare, uninflected form (which could be identical to the infinitive somewhat
like English). It could of course have some kind of inflection as well, maybe
it also inflects for aspect, for example.
James
On 22/05/2013, at 7:23 PM, James Thain <[email protected]> wrote:
> I got this idea from a "simple syntax" that Rick Harrison made available
> ostensibly for an auxlang. I thought it would make a good blueprint for the
> VSO language I am attempting.
> In his syntax (which I likely misunderstood) he has this explanation which I
> of course missed. 'where "did" is a verb modifier indicating that the
> preceding verb is in the simple past tense,'
>
> Yes, 'ikit' is supposed to be the auxiliary verb, The problem I have is the
> english go seemed like an infinitive but I think now it is a finite verb. How
> I form this finite go word is what seems to be messing me up. Obviously it
> can't be an infinitive and I'm not sure how I would form this word should it
> be formed more like an imperative with the auxiliary taking/being all the
> marking.
>
> Thanks for your questions and input.
> Jim
>
> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 14:02:02 +1200
> From: James Kane <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: New language sentence trial
>
> Can you explain a bit more about what is going on in this sentence? Why is go
> in the infinitive? Is 'ikit' from the verb do or is it just a TAM marker or a
> 'dummy verb' like the English word in the equivalent sentence?
>
>
> James
Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 11:04 am ((PDT))
Are any of your conlangs dieing or making a come back?
Silknish was a dead language, that's making a come back.
There's a family who is the last line of Silknish speakers, and they're
trying to make Silknish rise again.
There are ten members in the family, four servants, three parents, and
triplets.
R: Now that's a different idea! What language do they speak to other people? Is
this line the only line of Silknish people, or are there Silknish who oppose
the revival? Many language revival movements face resistance from other members
of the community (for that matter, why are they trying to revive it?). Are
there sounds in Silknish that are difficult for non-Silknish speakers? In some
language revivals, the elders oppose it. In some, the indigenous peoples resent
the knowledge of their language that a foreigner has. In some, there are
sectarian fights over spelling and pronunciation. In some, there is a conflict
over whether one can use the old language in 'modern' contexts. What
literature, if any, exists in Silknish? Do all Silknish speakers come from the
same dialect group? Often in dying languages there are missing words or
grammatical forms. Does Silknish display any of these? If so, how do the
remaining ten speakers deal with it?
Kiwa, the dying Mars of the Simayamka, Siye-speakers, has three living
languages, SIye, Ulok, and Kasa, the language of the Southern highlands, and
loads of dead language, like Utu Nes (a disjunct-conjunct language once spoken
in the current capital of the Ulok-speaking Kingdom of Nesa). There are many
dying dialects here and there along the River, some of which linguists would
probably classify as separate languages. The possibility of language revival
technically exists: the Siye-speaking Guild of Scholars are such pedants that
their excoriations of faulty grammars and impure tongues make handy reference
grammars! Unfortunately, the linguistic/political environment militates against
the use of any native languages except Siye, Ulok, and (more recently, with the
introduction of south-pole-to-equator flights) Kasa.
Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 11:55 am ((PDT))
Let me work out the answers, and get back to you, since as of now I have some
answedrs, not all.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Anthony Miles
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
Are any of your conlangs dieing or making a come back?
Silknish was a dead language, that's making a come back.
There's a family who is the last line of Silknish speakers, and they're
trying to make Silknish rise again.
There are ten members in the family, four servants, three parents, and
triplets.
R: Now that's a different idea! What language do they speak to other people? Is
this line the only line of Silknish people, or are there Silknish who oppose
the revival? Many language revival movements face resistance from other members
of the community (for that matter, why are they trying to revive it?). Are
there sounds in Silknish that are difficult for non-Silknish speakers? In some
language revivals, the elders oppose it. In some, the indigenous peoples resent
the knowledge of their language that a foreigner has. In some, there are
sectarian fights over spelling and pronunciation. In some, there is a conflict
over whether one can use the old language in 'modern' contexts. What
literature, if any, exists in Silknish? Do all Silknish speakers come from the
same dialect group? Often in dying languages there are missing words or
grammatical forms. Does Silknish display any of these? If so, how do the
remaining ten speakers deal with it?
Kiwa, the dying Mars of the Simayamka, Siye-speakers, has three living
languages, SIye, Ulok, and Kasa, the language of the Southern highlands, and
loads of dead language, like Utu Nes (a disjunct-conjunct language once spoken
in the current capital of the Ulok-speaking Kingdom of Nesa). There are many
dying dialects here and there along the River, some of which linguists would
probably classify as separate languages. The possibility of language revival
technically exists: the Siye-speaking Guild of Scholars are such pedants that
their excoriations of faulty grammars and impure tongues make handy reference
grammars! Unfortunately, the linguistic/political environment militates against
the use of any native languages except Siye, Ulok, and (more recently, with the
introduction of south-pole-to-equator flights) Kasa.
Messages in this topic (3)
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