There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: New language sentence trial
From: Roger Mills
2. Observations on verbal periphrastic constructions
From: John Q
3a. LAFUNI
From: William Mota
3b. Re: LAFUNI
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
3c. Re: LAFUNI
From: David Peterson
4a. Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: Leonardo Castro
4b. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
4c. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: James Kane
4d. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: Roger Mills
4e. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: Adam Walker
4f. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: George Corley
4g. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: Zach Wellstood
4h. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: James W
4i. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
From: MorphemeAddict
5. A reinterpretation of the Tatari Faran case system
From: H. S. Teoh
Messages
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1a. Re: New language sentence trial
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 1:14 pm ((PDT))
My first reaction to your sentence was that it was rather similar to Basque
usage, where most "verbs" consist of a base form (called IIRC a participle),
plus an aux--
forms of "have" for transitive verbs, forms of "be" for intransitives. The
"have" form indicates subject, object (and IO when present IIRC) + tense; the
"be" forms indicate subject, tense, etc.
There's also a handful of verbs that conjugate without the use of the aux.
I can't find my old Basque grammar, but if you look online you'll find info.
--- On Fri, 5/24/13, Anthony Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Miles <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: New language sentence trial
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 1:35 PM
Send transmission
Amtoni Mayales nesakam me esupusumsuna.
Sorry for the top posting - it would be even more confusing if I put it below,
even farther away from the message to whfch I am replying. Perhaps the original
'go' turned into an auxiliary verb, quite likely the future. so the inflected
'go' originally had a broader meaning. Or 'go' is sliced differently than
English. Of course, 'go' could be grammatically an infinitve, a participle, a
gerundive, probably not a noun ...
Can you provide us with some contrastive sentences in other tenses? For
example, 'I went', 'I go', 'I will go', 'I am going', 'I have gone'. Where does
the negation for 'I did not go' go? I am assuming that this conlang is
tense-based, not aspect-based.
End transmission
'Go' could be in the infinitive if you want it to be; it just means that your
past tense is formed in an interesting way. But yes, it's more likely to be a
bare, uninflected form (which could be identical to the infinitive somewhat
like English). It could of course have some kind of inflection as well, maybe
it also inflects for aspect, for example.
James
On 22/05/2013, at 7:23 PM, James Thain <[email protected]> wrote:
> I got this idea from a "simple syntax" that Rick Harrison made available
> ostensibly for an auxlang. I thought it would make a good blueprint for the
> VSO language I am attempting.
> In his syntax (which I likely misunderstood) he has this explanation which I
> of course missed. 'where "did" is a verb modifier indicating that the
> preceding verb is in the simple past tense,'
>
> Yes, 'ikit' is supposed to be the auxiliary verb, The problem I have is the
> english go seemed like an infinitive but I think now it is a finite verb. How
> I form this finite go word is what seems to be messing me up. Obviously it
> can't be an infinitive and I'm not sure how I would form this word should it
> be formed more like an imperative with the auxiliary taking/being all the
> marking.
>
> Thanks for your questions and input.
> Jim
>
> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 14:02:02 +1200
> From: James Kane <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: New language sentence trial
>
> Can you explain a bit more about what is going on in this sentence? Why is go
> in the infinitive? Is 'ikit' from the verb do or is it just a TAM marker or a
> 'dummy verb' like the English word in the equivalent sentence?
>
>
> James
Messages in this topic (6)
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2. Observations on verbal periphrastic constructions
Posted by: "John Q" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 2:32 pm ((PDT))
I was thinking about the English periphrastic construction âto manage to +
INFINITIVEâ, in that it conveys quite a lot of semantic nuance that goes way
beyond merely telic or goal-oriented aspect:
(1) a pre-existing expectation by the audience of failure
(2) a striving/struggle/effort against (presumed) odds
(3) the successful outcome of an effort
(4) an outcome against expectation
The fact that this construction can be used in an âinverseâ or ironic way
to refer to undesired outcomes is also interesting, e.g., âAfter all that
practice on the balance beam, she still managed to screw up her dismount.â
Another periphrastic construction that packs a lot of semantic nuance is ânot
be able to help GERUNDâ and its alternate form ânot be able to help (but) +
INFINITIVEâ as in âI couldnât help laughingâ or âI couldnât help
but laughâ.
I also find it interesting that equivalent constructions in other natural
languages likewise utilize a periphrastic construction but use different
lexical choices which are more intuitive (i.e., less idiomatic) than English,
e.g., Italian:
Siamo riusciti a salire la scala rotta. âWe managed to climb the broken
ladder.â
(LITERALLY: We succeeded in climbingâ¦â) where the verb âriuscireâ
(presumably?) carries more semantic âoomphâ than English âsucceedâ by
implying an effort against odds.
Non ho potuto fare di meno di ridere. âI couldnât help laughing.â
(LITERALLY: I couldnât help do less than laugh.)
or French:
Je ne peux pas mâempêcher de rire. âI canât help laughing.â
(LITERALLY: I canât prevent myself from laughing.)
Assuming that most natlangs have an equivalent periphrastic construction to
these (but probably donât have an actual morphological form such as an affix
or conjugation to express the concept), it gives rise to an idea -- developing
a sort of litmus test of, say, ten English sentences, or perhaps a paragraph,
by which to measure how fully developed oneâs conlang is in terms of
morpho-syntactical nuance, the ability to translate periphrastic/idiomatic
structures containing subtle aspectual and other semantic nuances, as well as
handling things like equivalents to conceptual metaphors, etc. The particular
sentences or paragraph would contain such common periphrastic constructions as
the above, which would require a conlanger, when translating them to:
(a) determine whether their conlang should accomplish the translation via a
periphrastic/idiomatic construction, as Indo-European languages;
(b) whether to handle the construction by creating overt morphological forms
(e.g., a dedicated aspectual affix or verbal mode);
(c) whether to handle the construction by a dedicated lexical form, e.g., a
dedicated auxiliary verb meaning âto not be able to help butâ;
(d) if choosing an idiomatic construction, the choice on what lexical items to
utilize for the idiom and how arbitrary to make the choice, (e.g., English
âmanageâ is, when you think about it, an unlikely choice given the
resultant meaning of âto manage to + INFâ --- the Italian use of
âsucceedâ seems far more intuitive);
Another possible English periphrastic construction that comes to mind is âto
be up to + GERUNDâ or the alternative âto be up for.â Interestingly, the
French equivalents to this construction can make a semantic distinction between
having the ability to do something (âêtre de taille à â¦â) and being in
the mood for (âêtre dâhumeur à â¦â), whereas the phrase âêtre à même
deâ¦â can be used with either meaning.
Also, the seemingly simple idea expressed by âto almost + INFINITIVEâ seems
to be ripe for periphrastic/idiomatic construction, as in French âmanquer
deâ¦â (LITERALLY: to lack ofâ¦) or the use of âfaillirâ (usable only
in the past tense), and especially the Italian construction âessere lí lí
per (+ INFINITIVE)â which resorts to a seemingly ideophonic construction
(LITERALLY: âto be there there forâ¦â)!
Besides the above constructions, what other possible semantically complex
periphrastic constructions might be used in developing such a list of sentences
(or paragraph) for such translation litmus test? And, of course, the list
should go beyond merely verbal constructions such as the above. It should
certainly include complex clause structures, e.g., nested subordinate clauses,
or the equivalents to various raising transformations, the handling of
causative constructions, etc.
--John Q.
Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. LAFUNI
Posted by: "William Mota" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 4:23 pm ((PDT))
I'm working on a new conlang - LAFUNI - totally designed to be easy to talk to
and learn. Work during leisure time for pleasure. As I am planning to slowly, I
am open to many suggestions collaborative.
The site to observe and participate http://fuzuksi.site40.net/
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: LAFUNI
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 5:20 pm ((PDT))
How is this language better for its stated purpose than Esperanto, Ido,
Occidental, or any other auxlangs out there?
Also, the Auxlang board may be more interested than us.
On 24 May 2013 19:13, William Mota <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm working on a new conlang - LAFUNI - totally designed to be easy to
> talk to and learn. Work during leisure time for pleasure. As I am planning
> to slowly, I am open to many suggestions collaborative.
>
> The site to observe and participate http://fuzuksi.site40.net/
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: LAFUNI
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 5:53 pm ((PDT))
The first email was fine (general announcement). This email, though, is asking
for the author to explain why his auxlang project is better than other auxlang
projects, and THAT would not be a discussion that can happen on this list at
all. Discussion of that character is for the Auxlang list.
David
Sent from my iPhone
On May 24, 2013, at 5:20 PM, Dustfinger Batailleur <[email protected]>
wrote:
> How is this language better for its stated purpose than Esperanto, Ido,
> Occidental, or any other auxlangs out there?
>
> Also, the Auxlang board may be more interested than us.
>
>
> On 24 May 2013 19:13, William Mota <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm working on a new conlang - LAFUNI - totally designed to be easy to
>> talk to and learn. Work during leisure time for pleasure. As I am planning
>> to slowly, I am open to many suggestions collaborative.
>>
>> The site to observe and participate http://fuzuksi.site40.net/
>>
Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 5:41 pm ((PDT))
Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
Roman Egypt speaking English).
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 5:42 pm ((PDT))
The Passion had ecclesiastical Latin instead of Vulgar Latin spoken by the
Romans, so it's not exactly accurate.
On 24 May 2013 20:41, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
>
> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
> Roman Egypt speaking English).
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 6:15 pm ((PDT))
I think I read somewhere that Greek was more likely to be used as a Lingua
Franca in that region and Latin would be more used only among the Romans.
Other than that I don't have anything particularly useful to add.
James
On 25/05/2013, at 12:42 PM, Dustfinger Batailleur <[email protected]>
wrote:
> The Passion had ecclesiastical Latin instead of Vulgar Latin spoken by the
> Romans, so it's not exactly accurate.
>
>
> On 24 May 2013 20:41, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
>> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
>> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
>>
>> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
>> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
>> Roman Egypt speaking English).
>>
>> At¨¦ mais!
>>
>> Leonardo
>>
Messages in this topic (9)
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4d. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 7:52 pm ((PDT))
Didn't Mel Gibson (or someone) also make a movie about the Spanish conquest of
Central America that featured the Mayan language????
--- On Fri, 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
Subject: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 8:41 PM
Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
Roman Egypt speaking English).
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (9)
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4e. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 7:57 pm ((PDT))
Yes. That was Mel. The movie is Apocalypto.
Adam
On 5/24/13, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> Didn't Mel Gibson (or someone) also make a movie about the Spanish conquest
> of Central America that featured the Mayan language????
>
> --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> From: Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
> Subject: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 8:41 PM
>
> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
>
> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
> Roman Egypt speaking English).
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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4f. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 8:00 pm ((PDT))
I have heard that that was an anachronistic variant of Mayan as well.
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes. That was Mel. The movie is Apocalypto.
>
> Adam
>
> On 5/24/13, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Didn't Mel Gibson (or someone) also make a movie about the Spanish
> conquest
> > of Central America that featured the Mayan language????
> >
> > --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > From: Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 8:41 PM
> >
> > Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
> > that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
> > possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
> >
> > Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
> > describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
> > Roman Egypt speaking English).
> >
> > Até mais!
> >
> > Leonardo
> >
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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4g. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 8:01 pm ((PDT))
I'm not sure of its accuracy, but there was an Amerindian language spoken
in that film. It's called Apocalypto (and I'd quite good, linguistics
aside).
There's also a movie called The New World (2005) which takes place in
Jamestown I think. The native Americans in the film speak a reconstructed
proto-Algonquian language, which was put together by a linguist.
Zach
On May 24, 2013 10:53 PM, "Roger Mills" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Didn't Mel Gibson (or someone) also make a movie about the Spanish
> conquest of Central America that featured the Mayan language????
>
> --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> From: Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
> Subject: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 8:41 PM
>
> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
>
> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
> Roman Egypt speaking English).
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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4h. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "James W" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 8:18 pm ((PDT))
There's some Lakota (I think) in Hidalgo. Not a lot, and I don't know how
time-accurate it is.
James W
On May 24, 2013, at 22:01, Zach Wellstood <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm not sure of its accuracy, but there was an Amerindian language spoken
> in that film. It's called Apocalypto (and I'd quite good, linguistics
> aside).
>
> There's also a movie called The New World (2005) which takes place in
> Jamestown I think. The native Americans in the film speak a reconstructed
> proto-Algonquian language, which was put together by a linguist.
>
> Zach
> On May 24, 2013 10:53 PM, "Roger Mills" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Didn't Mel Gibson (or someone) also make a movie about the Spanish
>> conquest of Central America that featured the Mayan language????
>>
>> --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> From: Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
>> To: [email protected]
>> Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 8:41 PM
>>
>> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
>> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
>> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
>>
>> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
>> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
>> Roman Egypt speaking English).
>>
>> Até mais!
>>
>> Leonardo
>>
Messages in this topic (9)
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4i. Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 9:46 pm ((PDT))
Dances with Wolves has Lakota in it.
stevo
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 11:17 PM, James W <[email protected]> wrote:
> There's some Lakota (I think) in Hidalgo. Not a lot, and I don't know how
> time-accurate it is.
>
> James W
>
> On May 24, 2013, at 22:01, Zach Wellstood <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure of its accuracy, but there was an Amerindian language spoken
> > in that film. It's called Apocalypto (and I'd quite good, linguistics
> > aside).
> >
> > There's also a movie called The New World (2005) which takes place in
> > Jamestown I think. The native Americans in the film speak a reconstructed
> > proto-Algonquian language, which was put together by a linguist.
> >
> > Zach
> > On May 24, 2013 10:53 PM, "Roger Mills" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Didn't Mel Gibson (or someone) also make a movie about the Spanish
> >> conquest of Central America that featured the Mayan language????
> >>
> >> --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
> >> Subject: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 8:41 PM
> >>
> >> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
> >> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
> >> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
> >>
> >> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
> >> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
> >> Roman Egypt speaking English).
> >>
> >> Até mais!
> >>
> >> Leonardo
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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5. A reinterpretation of the Tatari Faran case system
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 24, 2013 8:06 pm ((PDT))
Today, while grappling with what proto-Tatari Faran may have looked
like, I had an epiphany about a plausible historical origin of its case
system, and its case clitics.
Tatari Faran's case system exhibits some peculiarities, as shown by the
following examples (in order to avoid interpretational bias, I will call
the 3 core cases CASE1, CASE2, CASE3, instead of the usual labels):
1) Adjectival predicate:
huu sa himas tutu.
1SG CASE2:MASC tall FIN
I am tall.
2) Intransitive(?) verb:
huu sa duum imim.
1SG CASE2:MASC sleep FIN
I sleep.
3) A different kind of intransitive verb?
huu ka mimbai kakat
1SG CASE1:MASC dream FIN
I dream.
4) Transitive(?) verb:
huu ka juerat tara' nei itu.
1SG CASE1:MASC look 3SG CASE3:FEM FIN
I look at her.
5) Another kind of transitive verb?
huu na hamra tara' kei aram.
1SG CASE3:MASC see 3SG CASE1:FEM FIN
I see her.
6) Ditransitive verb:
huu ka kira karen so tara' nei esan.
1SG CASE1:MASC give shoe CASE2:NEUT 3SG CASE3:FEM FIN
I give the shoe(s) to her.
7) Verb of motion:
huu sa tapa buara ka buta' nei bata.
1SG CASE2:MASC walk volcano CASE1:MASC hut CASE3:FEM FIN
I walk from the volcano to the hut.
Moreover, NP order is free, and NPs may be freely elided. In (6), for
example, any two of the 3 NPs may be omitted and the sentence remains
grammatical and factually consistent with the full clause (albeit less
informative). For example, the 1SG pronoun may be omitted:
6b) karen so kira tara' nei esan.
shoe CASE2:NEUT give 3SG CASE3:FEM FIN
The shoe(s) were given to her.
(The passive voice in the English translation is misleading, as there is
no such indication in the Tatari Faran.) Indeed, one may say:
6c) tara' nei kira karen so esan.
3SG CASE3:FEM give shoe CASE2:NEUT FIN
To her were given shoe(s).
Or:
6d) tara' nei kira esan.
3SG CASE3:FEM give FIN
(It) was given to her.
I have no idea what category this system falls under (AFAICT, it doesn't
fit an ergative/absolutive or active-stative system, and definitely
doesn't fit an accusative system -- ideas, anyone?). But in any case, it
seems almost as if TF verbs are impersonal statements of fact "event X
happens", and NPs are only optional additional bits of information to
supplement that fact. In a sentence like (7), it's almost as if we are
saying "walking happened; and by the way, what was walking was I, and
where the walking started was the volcano, and where the walking ended
was the hut". That is to say, the verb is the primary item in the
clause, rather than any subject / agent / etc., and NPs are mere
afterthoughts.
Furthermore, TF is heavily modifier-final: postpositions (obviously)
follow the noun they govern; adjectives follow nouns; adverbs follow the
verb, case clitics appear at the end of the NP, etc.. Since the above
analysis implies that verbs are the primary item in clauses and all NPs
are secondary, this suggests that TF should be verb-initial (thus
fitting the structure verb + modifiers, among which are NPs, PPs, etc.).
Yet in the indicative mood, TF has verb-second order.
//
Now, several places in the current documentation on Tatari Faran claimed
that the case clitics were originally pronouns. I have grappled with
this claim for a long time, but could not find a plausible explanation
for how ancestral pronouns came to be obligatory case clitics following
every NP. This explanation works for monovalent verbs, if we posit that
the initial noun was originally a topic in a topic-comment construct.
That is:
huu sa tapa bata.
1SG CVY:MASC walk FIN
I walk.
was originally parsed not as (huu sa) (tapa bata), that is, as an NP
followed by a predicate, but as (huu) (sa tapa bata), where _huu_ is the
topic, and _sa tapa bata_ is the predicate, with _sa_ functioning as a
pronoun referring back to _huu_. IOW, a clause like "Karen walks" was
originally "Karen, she walks", which later got reanalysed as
(Karen-she)(walks), and then "-she" turned into a suffix.
The trouble with this analysis is that it doesn't work for more than one
NP: what kind of strange convolution would explain the modern parse (huu
sa) (tapa) (buara na) (bata) as arising from pronouns _sa_ and _na_? Why
would the noun _buara_ in the predicate require an obligatory pronoun
following it? Besides, the grammatical shift of pronoun -> case marker
seems a bit far-fetched.
//
So this is where today's epiphany comes in. Present-day Tatari Faran
exhibits the tendency to use 3rd person pronouns as demonstratives by
placing them after a noun, for example:
diru tara' sei tapa buara na bata.
girl 3SG(DEM) CASE2:FEM walk volcano CASE3:MASC FIN
That girl walks to the volcano.
By itself, _tara'_ is just a singular 3rd person pronoun, but when
placed after a noun in an NP, it functions as a demonstrative. This led
me to think, what if this tendency is a reflection of proto-TF having
the tendency to incorporate demonstratives into NPs, and the modern-day
case markers were originally *demonstratives*?
Suppose proto-TF's demonstratives came in 3 varieties (each inflected
for gender, masc/fem/neut):
ka/kei/ko: from that
sa/sei/so: that
na/nei/no: to that
The sa/sei/so triplet is the bare demonstrative, whereas the other two
are demonstratives with a directional component encoded.
Assuming a verb-initial word order, a proto-TF sentence might have
looked something like this:
*tapa diru buara na bata.
walk girl volcano to_that:MASC FIN
The girl walks to that volcano.
A literal English translation might be "the girl walks to_that volcano".
Now, suppose that over time, the tendency to incorporate demonstratives
into NPs caused *all* nouns in the sentence to pick up a demonstrative?
Thus you have:
*tapa diru sei buara na bata.
walk girl that:FEM volcano to_that:MASC FIN
That girl walks to that volcano.
But once *all* NPs acquire a trailing demonstrative, its demonstrative
force erodes away (it no longer contrasts with a noun without a
demonstrative). Furthermore, as attested in many natlangs,
demonstratives have a tendency to turn into articles. So perhaps at an
intermediate stage, proto-TF's demonstratives acquired an article-like
function (so the above sentence got reinterpreted as "_the_ girl walks
to _the_ volcano"), which causes the directional component of the
original demonstratives to acquire a more intrinsic meaning as noun
*case*. The article-like function then eroded away, leaving only the
obligatory noun case marking. Thus, we have accounted for the origin of
TF's case system (the directional component of the original
demonstratives makes the various case assignments shown earlier easier
to comprehend) and why the case clitic is an obligatory part of every
NP.
This leaves the word order, which can be explained as a fronting of an
NP for emphasis, which eventually caused all clauses to have a fronted
NP, thus producing the verb-second order attested in modern TF. This
also has the nice side-effect of explaining why, in the imperative mood,
the original verb-initial order is retained: in an imperative, the
emphasis is on the verb, the action one desires the 2nd party to carry
out, thus no NP is fronted, and proto-TF's verb-initial word order comes
through.
There is also yet another neat effect of this: in TF, verbs can be
conjugated to a "conjunctive" form, which is used when conjoining two
clauses that share the same fronted NP:
diru sei tapa buta' nei, kitsana bata' na aniin.
diru sei tapa buta' nei, ki-tsana bata' na aniin.
girl CASE2 walk hut CASE3 CASE1:CONJ-speak chief CASE3 FIN
The girl walks to the hut [and] speaks to the chief.
The conjunctive verb _kitsana_ is composed of the prefix _ki_, which is
derived from _kei_, and _tsana_, the bare verb for "speak". Using the
above analysis of _kei_ as originally being a demonstrative, we can now
trace the origin of _kitsana_ as a contraction of a demonstrative with
the verb, that is, in proto-TF:
*tapa diru sei buta' nei. kei tsana bata' na aniin.
walk girl that hut to_that from_that speak chief to_that FIN
That girl walks to that hut. From that (girl) [something] was
spoken to that chief.
In modern-day TF, this formulaic construction has been contracted into
the conjoined clause, with _kei_ affixing onto the verb and reducing to
_ki-_, and what is now an NP _diru sei_ being fronted by emphasis. Thus
we have the reinterpretation of _kitsana_ as a conjunctive verb.
//
In short, the hypothesis that TF's case clitics were ancient
demonstratives explains much of TF's present-day structure and is a very
compelling explanation indeed. So I shall have to retcon it as what
proto-TF actually was. :)
T
--
My program has no bugs! Only unintentional features...
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