There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1b. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Gleki Arxokuna
1c. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Leonardo Castro
2a. Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
From: Roger Mills
3a. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
From: Roger Mills
Messages
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1a. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 7:58 am ((PDT))
On 31 May 2013 05:09, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> There is a distinction between 'how do you say X in LANGUAGE' and 'what
> >> does this word mean'. It looks like you are asking for the latter. The
> >> former would be expressed in French by (I think) 'comment se dit X' as
> in
> >> 'comment se dit 'refrigerator' en français?' rather than 'qu'est-ce que
> le
> >> mot 'frigo' veut dire en anglais?'.
> > Quick correction: "How do you say X in LANGUAGE?" in French would be
> > "Comment est-ce qu'on dit X en LANGUE ?", with the impersonal "on" rather
> > than a reflexive. The reflexive sounds nearly like X is trying to say
> > itself!
>
> I have always been taught 'comment se dit X'.
You've been taught wrong, unless they wanted you to speak far too formally.
> I think Spanish also uses a reflexive construction, 'como se dice'. Your
> way sounds quite formal, although I'm not fluent though so I am probably
> wrong.
>
My way is actually the *opposite* of formal! Using "est-ce que" is by
definition informal!
>
> Come to think of, 'qu'est-ce que le mot X veut dire en LANGUE' sounds a
> bit formal as well, maybe 'que veut dire X en LANGUE' might be more
> conversational.
>
>
Who taught you that? You've got the formality completely messed-up! "Que
veut dire X en LANGUE ?" is very formal, so formal that the only way to
make it more formal is to replace "vouloir dire" with "signifier": "to
mean". In any case, it's already so formal that if I heard someone say it
that way I'd expect they were reading a book aloud! On the other hand
"Qu'est-ce que X veut dire ?" *is* informal. Remember: as soon as you use
"est-ce que" in your questions, you're being informal. It's an informal
question marker, that you'll use in normal conversations and among friends,
and which is specific of Spoken French.
On 31 May 2013 05:24, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]> wrote:
> i am the last person who should be giving authoritative information about
> french, but i always heard "comment dit-on 'X'?" which sounds like a
> shortened (and possibly equally legitimate) version of Christophe's.
>
>
It's actually the formal, bookish way of asking that question. The
inversion is typical of Written French, but is extremely rare in Spoken
French, which prefers to use the question marker "est-ce que" (pronounced
/Ésk(É)/) with the same word order as in affirmative sentences.
> in turkish it's "'X' [Türkçe] ne demek?" = "X (is) to say what in Turkish?"
> (lit. "X [in.Turkish] what say-INF")
>
> in arabic it's not very interesting, the general way just means "how (do)
> you say X in-the-Arabic?"
>
> in german you can say "Wie sagt man X (auf Deutsch)?" = "how says one X in
> German?" but i've also heard "wie/was heißt X?" ("how/what is X called?) to
> ask how something should be translated.
>
> in dutch, "hoe zeg je X?" = "how say you X?"
>
>
One more example I just thought of: Modern Greek:
"Τι Ïημαίνει Χ;": "what does X mean?" (a direct equivalent to the
English
version)
"Î ÏÏ Î»Îνε Χ ÏÏα ελληνικά;": "How do you say X in Greek?"
(literally: "How
do they say X in the Greek?")
On 31 May 2013 05:44, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hmmm, looking it up it seams that 'comment dit-on X' is more common,
> although 'comment se dit X' is used but with a more passive meaning, à la
> 'how is X is said'.
>
>
Once again, be careful: the first one is very formal, usable in writing but
certainly not in speech among friends. The second one sounds nearly wrong
to me, and I'm a native speaker!
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (19)
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1b. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Gleki Arxokuna" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 8:36 am ((PDT))
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:24 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hey, people. I'm working on a series of shorts for Conlangery on some
> simple phrasebook-style phrases, one of which will be asking for the
> definition or translation of a word. I've thought of a couple somewhat
> interesting examples from languages I know:
>
> Spanish: "Que quiere decir (X)?" lit. "What does X want to say?" (with some
> word order fun)
> Mandarin: Xæä»ä¹ææï¼ "What meaning does X have."
>
> And of course the more mundane examples that literally translate as "What
> does X mean?" or "How do you say X?" or "What is X?"
>
fanva zoi gy. Hello gy. la .lojban. fu ma = How [one] translates "Hello"
into Lojban?
fanva = x1 translates x2 to language x3 from language x4 with result x5
{fu} explicitly marks x5 place (the result of the translation).
ma smuni zoi gy. Hello gy. = What is-the-meaning-of "Hello"
smuni = x1 is a meaning of x2 accepted by x3
> So, basically, I'm asking about interesting ways that natlangs or conlangs
> express this idiomatically, as a way to provoke some creative thinking.
> I'm also interested in how to express the "... in LANGUAGE" bit, as in,
> "How do you say simpático in English?" In the past, I have tended to use an
> instrumental for this meaning, but I'm not sure if this occurs in natural
> languages -- Mandarin might be close, as I believe you can say something
> like ç¨ä¸æ说, "use Chinese to say", but that may be in contexts more
> related
> to what language a message is conveyed in, and not more generally.
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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1c. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 1:12 pm ((PDT))
Portuguese (X: word; Y: language):
"Como se diz X [em Y]?"
"O que significa X [em Y]?"
"O que quer dizer X [em Y]?"
In my under-development conlang Montakielu, a possible structure would
be like that:
<3rd person> <mean> <thing>-<interrogative particle> <speak> <language>
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/5/30 George Corley <[email protected]>:
> Hey, people. I'm working on a series of shorts for Conlangery on some
> simple phrasebook-style phrases, one of which will be asking for the
> definition or translation of a word. I've thought of a couple somewhat
> interesting examples from languages I know:
>
> Spanish: "Que quiere decir (X)?" lit. "What does X want to say?" (with some
> word order fun)
> Mandarin: Xæä»ä¹ææï¼ "What meaning does X have."
>
> And of course the more mundane examples that literally translate as "What
> does X mean?" or "How do you say X?" or "What is X?"
>
> So, basically, I'm asking about interesting ways that natlangs or conlangs
> express this idiomatically, as a way to provoke some creative thinking.
> I'm also interested in how to express the "... in LANGUAGE" bit, as in,
> "How do you say simpático in English?" In the past, I have tended to use an
> instrumental for this meaning, but I'm not sure if this occurs in natural
> languages -- Mandarin might be close, as I believe you can say something
> like ç¨ä¸æ说, "use Chinese to say", but that may be in contexts more
> related
> to what language a message is conveyed in, and not more generally.
Messages in this topic (19)
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________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 9:26 am ((PDT))
> --- On Wed, 5/29/13, [email protected]<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> How would you say, "My neighbor painted the house of the man who
>> robbed the bank where I keep my money." ?
==================================================
OK, time to try this--
Kash:
kamorami rumanat puna sinuti re nanjul alo landiñi re
maraput
neigh-mi caus-paint house man-gen REL steal from bank-gen REL I-keep
toyemi riyan.
money-my there
(That last "where" clause is particularly awkward in Kash.....lit., "that I
keep my money there")
Messages in this topic (19)
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3a. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 9:46 am ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 5/31/13, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't quite grasp why it so often substitutes for the /t/ sound, though.
>Why the sound change?
Perhaps because it requires less energy - you don't have to move your tongue up
and down.
=======================================================
And maybe because /t/ is one of the most common final consonants? (thus, low
functional load?) And can occur in a variety of -tC- clusters? It is odd that
other final stops in clusters don't reduce > [?] like /t/ does.
And it could be an old habit inherited from our cousins across the
pond.....???? (How long has it been going on over there?)
Messages in this topic (4)
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