There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
From: yuri
1b. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
From: Adam Walker
1c. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1d. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
From: Alex Fink
1e. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
From: Herman Miller
1f. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
From: George Marques de Jesus
2.1. Re: Dieing Languages
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2.2. Re: Dieing Languages
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: Dieing Languages
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3a. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: James Kane
4.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
From: Henrik Theiling
5. Place/mannor/voicing
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
6a. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
From: David McCann
6b. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
From: Matthew George
6c. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
From: Roger Mills
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
Posted by: "yuri" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 2:51 pm ((PDT))
Actually, when I first saw the subject line I thought this was going
to be a thread about tenses used by a time travelling conculture.
Past, present and future wouldn't suffice. You and I could be
discussing an event that happened in MY past but in YOUR future.
I think one of the Hitchhiker books discusses this issue.
I wonder how Gallifreyan handles this issue.
Yuri
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 3:31 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 4:51 PM, yuri <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I think one of the Hitchhiker books discusses this issue.
>
_The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_. I know this only because I
read it last week. Crummy book.
Adam
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 3:50 pm ((PDT))
Ah, I see.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Sam Stutter
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 5:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
Also, with England at that time (as with any society with that level of
development), intelligibility would vary massively between where in
thirteenth century England you landed, given the enormous differences in
dialect. Yuri could probably do alright in south-east England - given the
strong influence of the French and the Dutch, and the fact that modern
English is largely derived from Chaucer's variety of Middle English. Chaucer
worked in government and the South East is the centre of English power.
As soon as Yuri were to head north or west, however, he'd start to find
things a lot more difficult. Consider the differences between Chaucer's
"Canterbury Tales" and "Gawain and the Green Knight" which originates from
the north west (probably Cheshire or Staffordshire). You're going to have
very strong influences of the Cornish language in the south west (with many
people probably only speaking Cornish and no English) and there will be
small remnants of other celtic languages, possibly Cumbric. The border areas
with Wales and Scotland are also likely to be extremely difficult, given
that Welsh and Gaelic will be widespread. Even if speakers use Middle
English (and the majority of people living in England did), their dialect
will be so vastly different given the low level of communication between
regions (even on a church parish level) that a knowledge of Middle English
as spoken in the south-east will become gradually more useless as you head
north and west. The influences of Norse will probably be very strongly felt
across a swathe of northern England.
Middle English won't sound like babbling any more than modern Danish sounds
like babbling to a speaker of modern English - babbling is nonsense and the
human brain has a way of detecting what has meaning and what doesn't. Using
Danish as an example, many of the words may well be recognisable (the Danish
"hus", "mand" and "træ" could probably be guessed as "house", "man" and
"tree") and a good deal of meaning can be interpreted from context - unlike
something like Cantonese where an English speaker is going to have a lot
more difficulty understanding people.
But stuff like grammar, syntax, so called "false-friend" words, a bundle of
disparate words which modern English no longer possesses or has replaced
with words of French origin, etc, etc, your average English speaker - or, in
fact, the majority of even very highly educated English speakers - will find
English in the thirteenth century very difficult to get a hold on.
So, in answer to your questions: yes, if they were holidaying there for any
length of time. Yes, for the same reason. No, it wouldn't sound like
babbling because babbling is nonsense. It would sound like a (close) foreign
language.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 31 May 2013, at 11:17, "Elena ``of Valhalla''" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 2013-05-31 at 02:37:21 -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
>> This is probably the wrong list for this, but if someone were to go bac
to
>> the 1210 England, would they need a translator?
>>
>> Also, if Modern Yemorans go back in time, which I actually plan to have
>> happen, would they need a translator? How would that work, Yardish and
>> Silknish are the only languages spoken. I know Beginning Yardish needs to
be
>> different that Middle or even End Yardish, but do they have to be so
>> different that it sounds like babbling?
>
> It also depends on the culture: an european learned man from a couple
> centuries ago dropped in 1st century BCE Rome would have probably
> been able to communicate with little problems, at least in writing.
> (but I believe that sound changes between classical Latin
> and church Latin were smaller than e.g what happened to most
> german languages, so they could learn to cope with them)
>
> The same learned man, say from Germany, dropped in a 1st century
> germanic tribe should probably look for a local latin interpreter.
>
> If on the other hand your culture claims that your language is perfect
> and doesn't change, the first time travellers are in for quite
> a big shock. (Was it Yemorans or somebody elses' conculture who did?
> I don't remember.)
>
> --
> Elena ``of Valhalla''
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 3:57 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 09:51:44 +1200, yuri <[email protected]> wrote:
>Actually, when I first saw the subject line I thought this was going
>to be a thread about tenses used by a time travelling conculture.
>
>Past, present and future wouldn't suffice. You and I could be
>discussing an event that happened in MY past but in YOUR future.
It's hardly a matter of "suffice"; it's just that certain implicatures of the
use of certain tenses might no longer hold. Supposing the relevant notions
make sense in your time travel physics[0], the tense system might mark only
time differences in the "absolute" timeline, or only time differences in the
speaker's experiential timeline; nothing's wrong with either, though they might
be less useful. (Or both could exist as orthogonal systems; or other variants.)
Indeed, it's already the case that you might be telling me about an event that
happened in MY past but in YOUR future -- that's the great thing about writing,
or other forms of recording language! Yet we get by. (AFMCL, UNLWS has long
been planned to have a second series of reader-based temporal deictics, though
we haven't made up the forms.)
That said, JBR probably has the right of it: the cleanest system is just to
forego tense as an inflectional category! I suspect that if time were less
totally-ordered-for-everyone, and practically speaking were really just a
fourth dimension events can be positioned in without much that's functionally
special about it, then crosslinguistically tense inflection on the verb would
recede to about the (much lower) frequency that position-in-space inflection on
the verb has *here*.
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html#appx
[0] In general, the more narratively compelling a model of time travel is, the
less likely it is to have a physics of any consistency (though Primer is a
pleasant exception) -- see higher up on that page of JBR's.
Alex
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 5:19 pm ((PDT))
On 5/31/2013 5:51 PM, yuri wrote:
> Actually, when I first saw the subject line I thought this was going
> to be a thread about tenses used by a time travelling conculture.
>
> Past, present and future wouldn't suffice. You and I could be
> discussing an event that happened in MY past but in YOUR future.
>
> I think one of the Hitchhiker books discusses this issue.
>
> I wonder how Gallifreyan handles this issue.
>
> Yuri
Hmm, well we can assume that relativity is valid (the fact that "TARDIS"
stands for "time and relative dimension in space" is a big clue to
that). So, there are time-like intervals and space-like intervals. Since
Time Lords can travel both in time and space, they could very well have
time-like and space-like verb tenses!
(Well, probably TARDIS stands for something different in Gallifreyan,
but I don't know if that issue was ever considered...)
Certainly you'd need to have ways to refer to three or more distinct
frames of reference: the one relative to your current location in space
and time, your own personal timeline, and the personal timeline of your
listener or listeners. Actually, I'm thinking that these different
frames of reference are not unlike an evidential system. Maybe something
like Tirelat's mixed time-evidential suffixes would be an appropriate
bit of morphology for a language of time travelers.
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Time Travel and Language: or Historical Linguistics
Posted by: "George Marques de Jesus" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 9:53 pm ((PDT))
My new conlang Fóm (which I barely started) is spoken by a people capable
of a kind of time travel. They actually perceive time as another dimension
in space, so they treat it as such in the language (it wouldn't make sense
to inflect tenses, unless I create inflections for each dimension, which
will be a lot of awkward work). The only time-like inflections are the
verbal aspects, which are always relative to the subject's timeline.
George Marques
http://georgemarques.com.br
2013/5/31 Herman Miller <[email protected]>
> On 5/31/2013 5:51 PM, yuri wrote:
>
>> Actually, when I first saw the subject line I thought this was going
>> to be a thread about tenses used by a time travelling conculture.
>>
>> Past, present and future wouldn't suffice. You and I could be
>> discussing an event that happened in MY past but in YOUR future.
>>
>> I think one of the Hitchhiker books discusses this issue.
>>
>> I wonder how Gallifreyan handles this issue.
>>
>> Yuri
>>
>
>
> Hmm, well we can assume that relativity is valid (the fact that "TARDIS"
> stands for "time and relative dimension in space" is a big clue to that).
> So, there are time-like intervals and space-like intervals. Since Time
> Lords can travel both in time and space, they could very well have
> time-like and space-like verb tenses!
>
> (Well, probably TARDIS stands for something different in Gallifreyan, but
> I don't know if that issue was ever considered...)
>
> Certainly you'd need to have ways to refer to three or more distinct
> frames of reference: the one relative to your current location in space and
> time, your own personal timeline, and the personal timeline of your
> listener or listeners. Actually, I'm thinking that these different frames
> of reference are not unlike an evidential system. Maybe something like
> Tirelat's mixed time-evidential suffixes would be an appropriate bit of
> morphology for a language of time travelers.
>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 3:58 pm ((PDT))
Maybe just have the symbols by themselves as stand alones, and add double or
triple letters as advised.
The elder Silknish and Yardish speakers want to keep both languages pure,
and not mix roots and the younger generations don't.
So if I just double or triple the letters, how would I make Silknish
difficult to read and learn?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Padraic Brown
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 6:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
--- On Fri, 5/31/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> The characters represent sounds by themselves, but when connected to
> words, make the consonant long or short. Slashes make the next
> consonant long, the star makes the next consonant short. When connected
> to a vowel, they make give the vowel strong emphasis to it.
> The percent and dollar sign next to a vowel means the weak emphasis.
Okay. This is a start!
I would suggest using more standardised diacritics, though. There are
already well established characters that indicate shortness or length of
sound and so forth. Even doing something simple like doubling a letter
to indicate length will make your words much easier to read:
/ta*m/ang becomes ttamANG
Not very pretty, perhaps, but easier than trying to remember which symbol
does what where with whom and how. For example, the symbols and rules you
explained above are complex, but they still don't help me read `t#c%%h$e !
I realise the usual diacritics may be a little harder for you to deal
with, but your readers will certainly thank you for it!
> The elders of the Silknish want the pure language, but the younger
> generation want to pass the knowledge along.
Not really sure what this means...
Padraic
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]]
> On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:19 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
>
> --- On Tue, 5/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > What does it mean, you mean? I'm confused by your
> question.
>
> Well, then, I guess that now makes four of us who are
> confused about this
> same point!
>
> > The last descendants want Silknish to become a living
> language to
>
> If there is already a speaking community (or network, or
> whatever), then
> the language is in fact a living language already.
>
> > increase the current vocabulary, so that unnamed items,
> like an unknown
> > disease can use Silknish root forms, as the diseases
> and medical terms
> > have
> > those, and they feel that giving a new diseas or
> medical
> > term or instrument has a Yardish root form, it would
> change
> > the meaning.
>
> Huh? How so? Why would they change the meaning, if the
> meaning is some
> medical term? For example, we got croup from Scots (or
> leastways, we
> borrowed the word "croup" from Scots, dunno if we got the
> disease from
> them or not!). When we borrowed this word, we seem to have
> only taken
> the medical term -- an infectious disease of the larynx
> which causes
> difficulty in beathing. We didn't take the other throaty
> meanings of
> "croop" in Scots, such as croak or speak hoarsely or
> murmur.
>
> I should think that if Silknish is down to a small handful
> of speakers,
> they would have more problems on their hands than creating
> words for
> rare diseases or bizarre surgical instruments. Unless of
> course, all the
> speakers of Silknish work in the same hospital, and then it
> might be
> a nice idea for them to coin a Silknish word for "Bogdaz
> carapace spreader"
> where there is none now.
>
> > For examplele, the root form `t#c%%h$e which means
> frost, as in
> > frostbite, would change to fever is spelled tche, which
> wouldn't work
> > with bite.
>
> We still don't know what all those characters boil down
> to...
>
> Padraic
>
> > Mellissa Green
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2013 5:16 am ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 5/31/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Maybe just have the symbols by themselves as stand alones, and add
> double or triple letters as advised.
What I'm saying is simply that there are already well established and
commonly used ways of showing long and short sounds. The simple vowel
letters "a" and "e" are "short" -- putting some kind of long mark, "â",
"ê" or "Ä", "Ä" shows that they are long. In IPA, we show length by a
colon following the vowel, thus "[a:]" and "[e:]". It really comes down
to how you answer the question: do you want us to understand what you're
talking about, or do you not?
If these prove unreadable for you via your screen reader, you can
avoid all the diacritics by using single vowels for short: "a", "e" and
double vowels for long: "aa", "ee". This scheme also works for long and
short consonants: "m" vs. "mm".
Your use of percent signs and pound signs is needlessly complicated and
not at all transparent to your readers. As evidenced by at least three
people who couldn't make heads or tails of what you were trying to say.
> The elder Silknish and Yardish speakers want to keep both languages
> pure, and not mix roots and the younger generations don't.
That's fine. This of course happens with real languages as well!
> So if I just double or triple the letters, how would I make Silknish
> difficult to read and learn?
This is an in-world issue that, frankly, I don't really care about here.
All I'm getting at here is my own inability to read what you're writing and
your inability to explain what you mean. Your job as the writer is nòt
to make your language difficult for mé to read! Your job is to make a
difficult language easy for me to read! I'm telling you, if you leave a
whole bunch of dollar signs and stars and so forth, readers are not going
to want to deal with that.
Quite frankly, if the difference for you between a "hard" language and an
"easy" language is simply a matter of how many extra dollar signs and
ampersands you stick into the words, then I might suggest that you really
don't have any business trying to invent languages. As a budding novelist,
you have a lot on your plate trying to come up with a coherent vision for
your world and sorting out how it all works together. I would strongly urge
you to work on a couple related naming languages that you can insert into
your work and leave it at that.
If you really like creating languages, fine. But if your goal is having a
couple languages as background for your novel, then you really don't need
to learn how to do this!
A naming language consists basically of a list of words and some key
phrases that are used in your stories. They add flavor and depth to your
work without you having to slog through all the work required to build a
half-way decent language. These are great for writers because they are
relatively easy to make and certainly easy to maintain and add to. I
think you already have a list of Yardish words somewhere -- that's
basically your job done right there!
If you want Silknish to be a "harder" version, just take the Yardish words
and systematically alter the sounds:
adefovir >> defevre
ado-trastuzumab >> dotrrstizam
emtansine >> emnesin
afeditab >> aftetam
adalat >> atlam
aflibercept >> aflerrazb
agalsidase >> aglezet
albuterol >> ammitrel
proventil >> pervdle
ventolin >> vnetelin
alclometasone >> aglemptezam
dipropionate >> djrompenet
alefacept >> alvvazb
dipivoxil >> dbemozle
ganciclovir >> dgenqelevre
gefitinib >> dgeftenim
iressa >> yeresea
gelclair >> dgeqlere
gemcitabine >> dgemtavne
levothyroxine >> alwotrrucne
tirosint >> trusine
linaclotide >> lengclutte
linagliptin >> lengcletin
succimer >> hiqemre
sucralfate >> higravat
warfarin >> arvrin
jantoven >> champtevin
zafirlukast >> savrelcasse
zaleplon >> sauplam
There's a lot of medial vowel reduction, medial consonant voicing /
devoicing and combination, simplification of endings, etc., etc. I
didn't even have to come up with the underlying list of proto-forms!
This took five minutes, and all I have to do now is get rid of the words
I really don't like -- like "alwotrrucne" -- and assign meanings to
the rest based on what sorts of words I'd like my characters to use in the
story. Could be town names, personal names, epithets, etc:
"Alright you lazy dogs, those rebel Champtevins have fallen for out trap!
Aglezet! Get your mangy rock hurlers into position! Ammitrel! Your
slingers don't even have stones in their slings; let's look lively now,
we don't want to disappoint them, now do we!" Commander Sauplam raised his
battle-bloodied savrelcasse, the long recurved sword used by his ancestral
hill-folk. Just then, the first of the Champtevin rebels set foot along
the narrow canyon floor below them...
Padraic
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]]
> On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 6:13 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
>
> --- On Fri, 5/31/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > The characters represent sounds by themselves, but when
> connected to
> > words, make the consonant long or short. Slashes make
> the next
> > consonant long, the star makes the next consonant
> short. When connected
> > to a vowel, they make give the vowel strong emphasis to
> it.
> > The percent and dollar sign next to a vowel means the
> weak emphasis.
>
> Okay. This is a start!
>
> I would suggest using more standardised diacritics, though.
> There are
> already well established characters that indicate shortness
> or length of
> sound and so forth. Even doing something simple like
> doubling a letter
> to indicate length will make your words much easier to
> read:
>
> /ta*m/ang becomes ttamANG
>
> Not very pretty, perhaps, but easier than trying to remember
> which symbol
> does what where with whom and how. For example, the symbols
> and rules you
> explained above are complex, but they still don't help me
> read `t#c%%h$e !
>
> I realise the usual diacritics may be a little harder for
> you to deal
> with, but your readers will certainly thank you for it!
>
> > The elders of the Silknish want the pure language, but
> the younger
> > generation want to pass the knowledge along.
>
> Not really sure what this means...
>
> Padraic
>
> >
> >
> > Mellissa Green
> >
> >
> > @GreenNovelist
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:19 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
> >
> > --- On Tue, 5/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What does it mean, you mean? I'm confused by your
> > question.
> >
> > Well, then, I guess that now makes four of us who are
> > confused about this
> > same point!
> >
> > > The last descendants want Silknish to become a
> living
> > language to
> >
> > If there is already a speaking community (or network,
> or
> > whatever), then
> > the language is in fact a living language already.
> >
> > > increase the current vocabulary, so that unnamed
> items,
> > like an unknown
> > > disease can use Silknish root forms, as the
> diseases
> > and medical terms
> > > have
> > > those, and they feel that giving a new diseas or
> > medical
> > > term or instrument has a Yardish root form, it
> would
> > change
> > > the meaning.
> >
> > Huh? How so? Why would they change the meaning, if the
> > meaning is some
> > medical term? For example, we got croup from Scots (or
> > leastways, we
> > borrowed the word "croup" from Scots, dunno if we got
> the
> > disease from
> > them or not!). When we borrowed this word, we seem to
> have
> > only taken
> > the medical term -- an infectious disease of the
> larynx
> > which causes
> > difficulty in beathing. We didn't take the other
> throaty
> > meanings of
> > "croop" in Scots, such as croak or speak hoarsely or
> > murmur.
> >
> > I should think that if Silknish is down to a small
> handful
> > of speakers,
> > they would have more problems on their hands than
> creating
> > words for
> > rare diseases or bizarre surgical instruments. Unless
> of
> > course, all the
> > speakers of Silknish work in the same hospital, and
> then it
> > might be
> > a nice idea for them to coin a Silknish word for
> "Bogdaz
> > carapace spreader"
> > where there is none now.
> >
> > > For examplele, the root form `t#c%%h$e which
> means
> > frost, as in
> > > frostbite, would change to fever is spelled tche,
> which
> > wouldn't work
> > > with bite.
> >
> > We still don't know what all those characters boil
> down
> > to...
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> > > Mellissa Green
> >
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2013 7:58 am ((PDT))
Sound-altering sonds good, thanks.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Padraic Brown
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
--- On Fri, 5/31/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Maybe just have the symbols by themselves as stand alones, and add
> double or triple letters as advised.
What I'm saying is simply that there are already well established and
commonly used ways of showing long and short sounds. The simple vowel
letters "a" and "e" are "short" -- putting some kind of long mark, "â",
"ê" or "Ä", "Ä" shows that they are long. In IPA, we show length by a
colon following the vowel, thus "[a:]" and "[e:]". It really comes down
to how you answer the question: do you want us to understand what you're
talking about, or do you not?
If these prove unreadable for you via your screen reader, you can
avoid all the diacritics by using single vowels for short: "a", "e" and
double vowels for long: "aa", "ee". This scheme also works for long and
short consonants: "m" vs. "mm".
Your use of percent signs and pound signs is needlessly complicated and
not at all transparent to your readers. As evidenced by at least three
people who couldn't make heads or tails of what you were trying to say.
> The elder Silknish and Yardish speakers want to keep both languages
> pure, and not mix roots and the younger generations don't.
That's fine. This of course happens with real languages as well!
> So if I just double or triple the letters, how would I make Silknish
> difficult to read and learn?
This is an in-world issue that, frankly, I don't really care about here.
All I'm getting at here is my own inability to read what you're writing and
your inability to explain what you mean. Your job as the writer is nòt
to make your language difficult for mé to read! Your job is to make a
difficult language easy for me to read! I'm telling you, if you leave a
whole bunch of dollar signs and stars and so forth, readers are not going
to want to deal with that.
Quite frankly, if the difference for you between a "hard" language and an
"easy" language is simply a matter of how many extra dollar signs and
ampersands you stick into the words, then I might suggest that you really
don't have any business trying to invent languages. As a budding novelist,
you have a lot on your plate trying to come up with a coherent vision for
your world and sorting out how it all works together. I would strongly urge
you to work on a couple related naming languages that you can insert into
your work and leave it at that.
If you really like creating languages, fine. But if your goal is having a
couple languages as background for your novel, then you really don't need
to learn how to do this!
A naming language consists basically of a list of words and some key
phrases that are used in your stories. They add flavor and depth to your
work without you having to slog through all the work required to build a
half-way decent language. These are great for writers because they are
relatively easy to make and certainly easy to maintain and add to. I
think you already have a list of Yardish words somewhere -- that's
basically your job done right there!
If you want Silknish to be a "harder" version, just take the Yardish words
and systematically alter the sounds:
adefovir >> defevre
ado-trastuzumab >> dotrrstizam
emtansine >> emnesin
afeditab >> aftetam
adalat >> atlam
aflibercept >> aflerrazb
agalsidase >> aglezet
albuterol >> ammitrel
proventil >> pervdle
ventolin >> vnetelin
alclometasone >> aglemptezam
dipropionate >> djrompenet
alefacept >> alvvazb
dipivoxil >> dbemozle
ganciclovir >> dgenqelevre
gefitinib >> dgeftenim
iressa >> yeresea
gelclair >> dgeqlere
gemcitabine >> dgemtavne
levothyroxine >> alwotrrucne
tirosint >> trusine
linaclotide >> lengclutte
linagliptin >> lengcletin
succimer >> hiqemre
sucralfate >> higravat
warfarin >> arvrin
jantoven >> champtevin
zafirlukast >> savrelcasse
zaleplon >> sauplam
There's a lot of medial vowel reduction, medial consonant voicing /
devoicing and combination, simplification of endings, etc., etc. I
didn't even have to come up with the underlying list of proto-forms!
This took five minutes, and all I have to do now is get rid of the words
I really don't like -- like "alwotrrucne" -- and assign meanings to
the rest based on what sorts of words I'd like my characters to use in the
story. Could be town names, personal names, epithets, etc:
"Alright you lazy dogs, those rebel Champtevins have fallen for out trap!
Aglezet! Get your mangy rock hurlers into position! Ammitrel! Your
slingers don't even have stones in their slings; let's look lively now,
we don't want to disappoint them, now do we!" Commander Sauplam raised his
battle-bloodied savrelcasse, the long recurved sword used by his ancestral
hill-folk. Just then, the first of the Champtevin rebels set foot along
the narrow canyon floor below them...
Padraic
>
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]]
> On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 6:13 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
>
> --- On Fri, 5/31/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > The characters represent sounds by themselves, but when
> connected to
> > words, make the consonant long or short. Slashes make
> the next
> > consonant long, the star makes the next consonant
> short. When connected
> > to a vowel, they make give the vowel strong emphasis to
> it.
> > The percent and dollar sign next to a vowel means the
> weak emphasis.
>
> Okay. This is a start!
>
> I would suggest using more standardised diacritics, though.
> There are
> already well established characters that indicate shortness
> or length of
> sound and so forth. Even doing something simple like
> doubling a letter
> to indicate length will make your words much easier to
> read:
>
> /ta*m/ang becomes ttamANG
>
> Not very pretty, perhaps, but easier than trying to remember
> which symbol
> does what where with whom and how. For example, the symbols
> and rules you
> explained above are complex, but they still don't help me
> read `t#c%%h$e !
>
> I realise the usual diacritics may be a little harder for
> you to deal
> with, but your readers will certainly thank you for it!
>
> > The elders of the Silknish want the pure language, but
> the younger
> > generation want to pass the knowledge along.
>
> Not really sure what this means...
>
> Padraic
>
> >
> >
> > Mellissa Green
> >
> >
> > @GreenNovelist
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:19 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Dieing Languages
> >
> > --- On Tue, 5/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What does it mean, you mean? I'm confused by your
> > question.
> >
> > Well, then, I guess that now makes four of us who are
> > confused about this
> > same point!
> >
> > > The last descendants want Silknish to become a
> living
> > language to
> >
> > If there is already a speaking community (or network,
> or
> > whatever), then
> > the language is in fact a living language already.
> >
> > > increase the current vocabulary, so that unnamed
> items,
> > like an unknown
> > > disease can use Silknish root forms, as the
> diseases
> > and medical terms
> > > have
> > > those, and they feel that giving a new diseas or
> > medical
> > > term or instrument has a Yardish root form, it
> would
> > change
> > > the meaning.
> >
> > Huh? How so? Why would they change the meaning, if the
> > meaning is some
> > medical term? For example, we got croup from Scots (or
> > leastways, we
> > borrowed the word "croup" from Scots, dunno if we got
> the
> > disease from
> > them or not!). When we borrowed this word, we seem to
> have
> > only taken
> > the medical term -- an infectious disease of the
> larynx
> > which causes
> > difficulty in beathing. We didn't take the other
> throaty
> > meanings of
> > "croop" in Scots, such as croak or speak hoarsely or
> > murmur.
> >
> > I should think that if Silknish is down to a small
> handful
> > of speakers,
> > they would have more problems on their hands than
> creating
> > words for
> > rare diseases or bizarre surgical instruments. Unless
> of
> > course, all the
> > speakers of Silknish work in the same hospital, and
> then it
> > might be
> > a nice idea for them to coin a Silknish word for
> "Bogdaz
> > carapace spreader"
> > where there is none now.
> >
> > > For examplele, the root form `t#c%%h$e which
> means
> > frost, as in
> > > frostbite, would change to fever is spelled tche,
> which
> > wouldn't work
> > > with bite.
> >
> > We still don't know what all those characters boil
> down
> > to...
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> > > Mellissa Green
> >
>
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 6:30 pm ((PDT))
Wow I have been very wrong! I did learn most of my French in a classroom rather
than a native speaking environment... Presumably they did want us to speak more
formally. I also might be mixing too much of my English with it. I'm sorry for
trying to correct you though ;-P
James
On 1/06/2013, at 2:58 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 31 May 2013 05:09, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> There is a distinction between 'how do you say X in LANGUAGE' and 'what
>>>> does this word mean'. It looks like you are asking for the latter. The
>>>> former would be expressed in French by (I think) 'comment se dit X' as
>> in
>>>> 'comment se dit 'refrigerator' en français?' rather than 'qu'est-ce que
>> le
>>>> mot 'frigo' veut dire en anglais?'.
>>> Quick correction: "How do you say X in LANGUAGE?" in French would be
>>> "Comment est-ce qu'on dit X en LANGUE ?", with the impersonal "on" rather
>>> than a reflexive. The reflexive sounds nearly like X is trying to say
>>> itself!
>>
>> I have always been taught 'comment se dit X'.
>
>
> You've been taught wrong, unless they wanted you to speak far too formally.
>
>
>> I think Spanish also uses a reflexive construction, 'como se dice'. Your
>> way sounds quite formal, although I'm not fluent though so I am probably
>> wrong.
>
> My way is actually the *opposite* of formal! Using "est-ce que" is by
> definition informal!
>
>
>>
>> Come to think of, 'qu'est-ce que le mot X veut dire en LANGUE' sounds a
>> bit formal as well, maybe 'que veut dire X en LANGUE' might be more
>> conversational.
> Who taught you that? You've got the formality completely messed-up! "Que
> veut dire X en LANGUE ?" is very formal, so formal that the only way to
> make it more formal is to replace "vouloir dire" with "signifier": "to
> mean". In any case, it's already so formal that if I heard someone say it
> that way I'd expect they were reading a book aloud! On the other hand
> "Qu'est-ce que X veut dire ?" *is* informal. Remember: as soon as you use
> "est-ce que" in your questions, you're being informal. It's an informal
> question marker, that you'll use in normal conversations and among friends,
> and which is specific of Spoken French.
>
> On 31 May 2013 05:24, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> i am the last person who should be giving authoritative information about
>> french, but i always heard "comment dit-on 'X'?" which sounds like a
>> shortened (and possibly equally legitimate) version of Christophe's.
> It's actually the formal, bookish way of asking that question. The
> inversion is typical of Written French, but is extremely rare in Spoken
> French, which prefers to use the question marker "est-ce que" (pronounced
> /Ésk(É)/) with the same word order as in affirmative sentences.
>
>
>> in turkish it's "'X' [Türkçe] ne demek?" = "X (is) to say what in Turkish?"
>> (lit. "X [in.Turkish] what say-INF")
>>
>> in arabic it's not very interesting, the general way just means "how (do)
>> you say X in-the-Arabic?"
>>
>> in german you can say "Wie sagt man X (auf Deutsch)?" = "how says one X in
>> German?" but i've also heard "wie/was heißt X?" ("how/what is X called?) to
>> ask how something should be translated.
>>
>> in dutch, "hoe zeg je X?" = "how say you X?"
> One more example I just thought of: Modern Greek:
> "Τι Ïημαίνει Χ;": "what does X mean?" (a direct equivalent to the
> English
> version)
> "Î ÏÏ Î»Îνε Χ ÏÏα ελληνικά;": "How do you say X in Greek?"
> (literally: "How
> do they say X in the Greek?")
>
> On 31 May 2013 05:44, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, looking it up it seams that 'comment dit-on X' is more common,
>> although 'comment se dit X' is used but with a more passive meaning, à la
>> 'how is X is said'.
> Once again, be careful: the first one is very formal, usable in writing but
> certainly not in speech among friends. The second one sounds nearly wrong
> to me, and I'm a native speaker!
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 8:05 pm ((PDT))
The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at:
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
This is automatically posted once a month, copied directly from that page,
for the benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please
edit it at the link above.
**Henrik
==Where to get Conlang-L==
The official archives are at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html .
>From there, you can search the archives, get an RSS feed, manage your
subscription, etc.
It's also the ONLY place you can go to sign up and post things to the list.
A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
http://archives.conlang.info/ . [As of April 2009 this archive has ceased
mirroring new messages. Henrik Theiling knows about the problem and has said
he's planning to fix it but hasn't had time to do so yet.]
Conlang-L is also _mirrored_ as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to have
posts to the Yahoo group sent to the actual list. Do *not* subscribe to the
Yahoo group. It has no admin anymore. Go to
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html instead!
==A brief history of the list==
The list evolved from some informal email conversations among an early group
of language enthusiasts. The earliest mail mirror was run by John Ross out of
the BU physics department, and was up and running by 29 July 1991. It moved to
Denmark on 23 March, 1993.
The original note reads in part:
''By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to
diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of Copenhagen.
Send all submissions to CONLANG at diku dot dk. The address at buphy still
works, but it is just an alias for the new list.''
''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept) (Humour NOT marked)''
(Note that the submission address in that historical note '''NO LONGER
WORKS'''.)
Later, growing traffic and changes at the university necessitated a move. In
JanuaryâFebruary of 1997 the list moved to its current home at Brown
University's LISTSERV server. David Durand made the move and actively
moderated the list from that point on.
Before the move, threads centered on debates on the relative merits of
[[auxlang]]s had become common on CONLANG; these were often incendiary and
irritated many listmembers. Accordingly, when the new CONLANG list was set up
at Brown, a sister list AUXLANG was set up to cater to participants of these
threads, and auxlang advocacy was banned from CONLANG. It still is.
(Dispassionate discussion of auxlangs is welcome.)
In ??? John Cowan took over actual moderation duties, as "Lord of the
Instrumentality".
Later the torch was passed to Henrik Theiling.
==List behaviour==
The CONLANG list rejects attachments.
===Posting limits===
As a traffic-limiting measure, if the list receives more than 99 messages in a
given day (in Brown's time zone), all subsequent messages will be
automatically held and not delivered until the admin unblocks the list.
Sometimes, during longer periods of high traffic, a further limit is imposed
restricting each person to five posts a day. ''This restriction is currently
in force.'' Messages beyond the daily limit are simply bounced, not held for
the next day.
Posters are encouraged to consolidate several shorter replies on a single
topic into a single message.
==Subject Topic Tags==
In the subject line of a post, you can mark the post with one of the following
tags. Tags are only recognised if a colon follows immediately: no other
decoration (e.g. brackets, an extra space) should be used. Any 'Re:' etc. is
irrelevant -- the software skips it.
Good tag syntax:
CHAT: Is the world really round?
Bad tag syntax:
[CHAT]: Is the world really round?
These are the official tags the listserv software can be instructed to
filter automatically. There are currently exactly four:
* OT: off-topic stuff
* CHAT: off-topic stuff of the conversational sort
* USAGE: natural language usage (all of the YAEPT and similar should use this)
* THEORY: linguistic theory discussions
Only the above tags are official and configured for filtering. However, most
advanced mail clients can be set to have extra filters, such as for the
following unofficial tags:
* OFFLIST: not actually seen on-list, this tag is added to make explicitly
clear that you are taking a subject offlist (i.e. you're emailing someone
directly about it)
The following are explicitly not included in the list of filterable tags:
* META: threads about CONLANG-L itself
* TECH: technical issues (e.g. email programs, list-related technical
problems, etc)
Finally, there are two meta-tags:
* [CONLANG]: This should not be actually added when starting a new subject;
you can make the listserv prepend it automatically to all email (so that you
can set your mail client to filter all list traffic)
* "was": used to change the subject, or more commonly, to indicate that the
subject of a thread changed a while ago and you're no longer pretending it's
about the original topic
Example:
JAMA says flat earth leads to flat [@] (was CHAT: Is the world really round?)
Note that tags ARE included after the "was", but "Re:" is NOT, nor is
[CONLANG].
==Acronyms==
List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:
* AFMCL - "As for my conlang.."
** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"
* ANADEW - "A natlang's already dunnit, except worse"
* ANADEWism - Something you thought was unique, but ANADEW
* IML - "in my 'lect" (dialect or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect
idiolect], depending on context)
* LCC - the [http://conference.conlang.org Language Creation Conference]
* LCS - the [http://conlang.org Language Creation Society]
* NCNC - "No cross, no crown". In the context of the list, "don't discuss
religion or politics"
([http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2006/05/no-cross-no-crown.html not its
more general meaning]).
* NLF2DWS or NLWS - Non-linear [fully 2-dimensional] writing system
* YAEPT (the original acronym) - Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread
** YADPT ... Dutch Pronunciation ...
** YAGPT ... German Pronunciation ...
** YAEGT ... English Grammar ...
** YAEUT ... English Usage ...
** general pattern: YA(Language)(Topic)T
Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
[http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:] or
[http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Acronym Finder].
==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==
>From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
[http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here]. See also [[Conlang
terminology]].
con__
* constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
conculture, ...
__lang
* a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang, artlang,
auxlang, ...
[[artlang]]
# A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From art(istic) +
lang(uage)]
# (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]
[[auxlang]]
* A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]
concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]
* Adjective form of "conculture".
[[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]
* A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also "conworld".
[[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]
# n. A constructed language
# v. To construct a language
[[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L
* A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
operated by Henrik Theiling
[[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]
* A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
"conculture".
[[engelang]] /ËendÊlæÅ/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
* A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is objectively
testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different from claiming
that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the Lojban/Loglan
roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the speakers of the
(numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion to the number of
speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this criterion is met; it is
something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
etabnannery /raËmnænÉɹi/ (rare)
* The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
failing at even being that. [From EtáÌbnann(i), a conlang by Tristan McLeay,
which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]
maggelity /mÉËgÉlɪti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by Christophe
Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]
# The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)
# The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)
Maggel's Paradox (rare)
* Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)
[[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]
# A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
opposed to a conlang.
ObConlang (or ObCL)
* Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.
* From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).
[[translation relay]]
* A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages - and
then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.
==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==
[[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list. X-SAMPA
is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.
* [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart
* [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]
==Related lists==
The Auxlang list, mentioned above, is dedicated to international auxiliary
languages. Its archives and subscription interface are at
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/auxlang.html .
The list [email protected] is dedicated to the planning and
conducting of [[conlang relay]]s, q.v.
==Resources==
* [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]
* [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
"biographies"
* [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ
* [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more writing
systems than you thought could exist
{{Conlangculture}}
[[Category:Terminology]]
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5. Place/mannor/voicing
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri May 31, 2013 11:58 pm ((PDT))
Why are these terms called by those names?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2013 8:23 am ((PDT))
On Fri, 31 May 2013 09:46:18 -0700
Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> And it could be an old habit inherited from our cousins across the
> pond.....???? (How long has it been going on over there?)
A long while, I suspect. I don't have any data to hand, but it's
widespread. /t/ is [Ê] before an non-syllabic consonant for most RP
speakers and dialects exist all the way from London to Glasgow that
replace [t] by [Ê] between vowels: bottle > [bÉÊÊ] and [bÉtl]
respectively.
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
Posted by: "Matthew George" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2013 8:43 am ((PDT))
Å is supposedly a more-difficult sound to make than most others, which I've
read is part of why it tends to vanish from languages and is only a
syllabic coda in English. There are thought to be reasons why it's so
relatively uncommon, and why it's replaced.
But there aren't any such reasons for the shift from t to Ê...?
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
6c. Re: Why does the glottal stop often replace /t/ in English?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2013 9:20 am ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 6/1/13, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
Å is supposedly a more-difficult sound to make than most others, which I've
read is part of why it tends to vanish from languages and is only a
syllabic coda in English.
===========================================
Sez who??? :-))) Seems to be mainly a W.Eur. or may Indo-Eur. thing. /N/
abounds in Austronesian languages, as well as Chinese and Thai (I think), plus
Australian. Don't know about Amerind (N or S).....Seems to be prevalent in
Africa as well, but maybe not in the Semitic langs.....
I've encountered a dial. of Peruvian Spanish where /N/ was substituted for all
final nasals.
In fact, in some Indonesian languages, when final nasals neutralize to a single
sound, the default seems to be /N/.
============================================
There are thought to be reasons why it's so
relatively uncommon, and why it's replaced.
But there aren't any such reasons for the shift from t to Ê...?
Messages in this topic (7)
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