There are 15 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: OT: Web hosting services From: Amanda Babcock Furrow 1b. Re: OT: Web hosting services From: C. Brickner 2a. Re: Jul17 inflections From: H. S. Teoh 2b. Re: Jul17 inflections From: neo gu 2c. Re: Jul17 inflections From: neo gu 3a. Re: ping From: Padraic Brown 4a. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Padraic Brown 4b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Jörg Rhiemeier 4c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Njenfalgar 4d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Matthew George 4e. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Daniel Prohaska 4f. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Padraic Brown 5a. searching for missing words From: MorphemeAddict 5b. Re: searching for missing words From: Padraic Brown 6a. Re: Fwd: "Even if" From: Padraic Brown Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1a. Re: OT: Web hosting services Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:18 am ((PDT)) On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 03:04:37PM +0200, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote: > On 27 July 2013 06:52, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > For those who have their own web sites, what web hosting service do > > you use? Why? > > > One of the services of the Language Creation Society is to provide its > members with free web hosting. Check > http://conlang.org/about-the-lcs/web-hosting/ for more details. Just on the off chance Leonardo was talking about non-conlang-related applets, I would point out that any content hosted on the LCS webspace has to be related to conlanging. tylakèhlpë'fö, Amanda Messages in this topic (5) ________________________________________________________________________ 1b. Re: OT: Web hosting services Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:07 pm ((PDT)) >One of the services of the Language Creation Society is to provide its >members with free web hosting. Check >http://conlang.org/about-the-lcs/web-hosting/ for more details. > >Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets. > > Ǧẽẽron, Èéxdemóónuẽs! Iâve been doing conlanging for several decades. I began with a pencil and a spiral notebook! Now I have a laptop. My problem is that, while Iâm really great with pencil and paper, Iâm not so great with a computer. I know how to use my WordPerfect, but Iâm really download-shy. I went to the LCS page that Cristophes recommended. Frankly, I donât understand the technical details on the page. Iâd greatly appreciate it if someone would help me (privately). Iâd especially like to know if my WP documents can simply be copied to my LCS website. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. súreĩĩðe, Charlie Messages in this topic (5) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Re: Jul17 inflections Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:34 am ((PDT)) On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 04:42:30PM -0400, neo gu wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:30:01 -0700, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote: > > >On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 02:54:25PM -0400, neo gu wrote: > >> To avoid confusion, I'm going to try to use a minimum of terminology. > >[...] > >> Examples: > >> > >> man-give-B1-C4-E8 crumb-find-B2-C4-E8 cockroach-eat-B1-C4-E3 > >> "The man fed the cockroach a crumb." > >[...] > > > >Actually, I find this even more confusing than using *some* kind of > >terminology. My brain can deal with unusual terminology -- at least > >there's some kind of semantic handle there to hold on to -- whereas when > >it's just letters and numbers, I zone out. > > Other people seem to have a problem with my terminology. How about > > man-give-DIR-AOR-SEC crumb-find-INV-AOR-SEC cockroach-eat-DIR-AOR-FAC > > Actually, DIR (for these verbs), AOR, and SEC end up as 0, but are > given in the interlinear as a reminder. Well, it would help if you define what those acronyms mean. ;-) And if you explain your terminology. Non-standard terminology is kinda hard to figure out without explanation, y'know? [...] > >This sounds rather similar to Henrik Theiling's Trukva, in which > >sentences aren't built from subject, verb, object, instead, > >everything is built from adverbials (intransitive verb + noun): > > > > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s30/ > > Thanks for the link! I knew there were conlangs besides Peter > Bleackley's iljena that combined noun and verb but couldn't think of > any. Trukva is rather different in detail. I don't really know the details of Trukva very well; I just remembered glancing over it and noting its interesting structure. My new alien conlang, OTOH, takes things to the opposite extreme, in that the meaning usually carried by a verb is sorta distributed across *nouns*. There's an instrumental case marker -mi which behaves half the time like a verbalizer, and the other half the time like a nominal instrumental case. So to say something like "I speak to you", the language renders it as: ehrlunemi kuhteku ehrlu-en-mi kuh-tek-u tongue-1SG.POSS-INSTR ear-2SG.POSS-ACC The meaning of "to speak" is mostly implied by the verbalization of "tongue", but also carried by "ear", since, conceivably, saying _bufteku_ (lit. "your body") instead could mean "I lick you" instead. A particularly striking example of this odd distribution of verbal meaning across nouns is in the following pair of examples: voluÅtekmi gruÅgen dastu voluÅ-tek-mi gruÅ-en dast-tu spaceship-2SG.POSS-INSTR hands-1SG.POSS there-DAT I fly your spaceship there. voluÅtekmi bufen dastu voluÅ-tek-mi buf-en dast-tu spaceship-2SG.POSS-INSTR body-1SG.POSS there-DAT I ride your spaceship there. The idea of "fly"/"ride" is supplied by the instrumental/verbalized noun "spaceship"; whereas the distinction between them is indicated by whether it's my hands that's handling the spaceship, or my body that's passively sitting in it. :) [...] > >> Each verb has either a single explicit argument (expressed by the > >> preceding noun or pronoun) or an explicit argument and an implicit > >> one (to be identified later). Slot B specifies the relationship > >> between the 2 arguments: > >[...] > > > >What happens to slot B if only an explicit argument is needed? > > With the new phonology, slot B is 0 if the verb has only one inherent > argument. Previously, it had to be one of the valence reduction > suffixes B3 (ANT), B4 (PAS), or B5 (RFX), depending on the verb > subclass. If it has two inherent arguments, valence reduction must > still be used, since 0 is used for the default voice, either B1 (DIR) > or B2 (INV), depending on the verb subclass. I see, that makes sense. T -- Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before. Messages in this topic (6) ________________________________________________________________________ 2b. Re: Jul17 inflections Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:48 pm ((PDT)) On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 08:33:00 -0700, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote: >On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 04:42:30PM -0400, neo gu wrote: >> On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:30:01 -0700, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> >> wrote: >> >> >On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 02:54:25PM -0400, neo gu wrote: >> >> To avoid confusion, I'm going to try to use a minimum of terminology. >> >[...] >> >> Examples: >> >> >> >> man-give-B1-C4-E8 crumb-find-B2-C4-E8 cockroach-eat-B1-C4-E3 >> >> "The man fed the cockroach a crumb." >> >[...] >> > >> >Actually, I find this even more confusing than using *some* kind of >> >terminology. My brain can deal with unusual terminology -- at least >> >there's some kind of semantic handle there to hold on to -- whereas when >> >it's just letters and numbers, I zone out. >> >> Other people seem to have a problem with my terminology. How about >> >> man-give-DIR-AOR-SEC crumb-find-INV-AOR-SEC cockroach-eat-DIR-AOR-FAC >> >> Actually, DIR (for these verbs), AOR, and SEC end up as 0, but are >> given in the interlinear as a reminder. > >Well, it would help if you define what those acronyms mean. ;-) And if >you explain your terminology. Non-standard terminology is kinda hard to >figure out without explanation, y'know? Then should I redo the original post with terminology? >[...] >> >This sounds rather similar to Henrik Theiling's Trukva, in which >> >sentences aren't built from subject, verb, object, instead, >> >everything is built from adverbials (intransitive verb + noun): >> > >> > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s30/ >> >> Thanks for the link! I knew there were conlangs besides Peter >> Bleackley's iljena that combined noun and verb but couldn't think of >> any. Trukva is rather different in detail. > >I don't really know the details of Trukva very well; I just remembered >glancing over it and noting its interesting structure. I'll need to read it again, more carefully. Unlike you and Henrik, I don't speak any form of Chinese, although I've wanted to learn Sino-Japanese. >My new alien conlang, OTOH, takes things to the opposite extreme, in >that the meaning usually carried by a verb is sorta distributed across >*nouns*. [...] I've been reading those posts. I have no comment other than "interesting". > >T > >-- >Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've >forgotten this before. Messages in this topic (6) ________________________________________________________________________ 2c. Re: Jul17 inflections Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:52 pm ((PDT)) This version uses terminology. In the latest sketch (Jul17), each noun or pronoun is paired with a verb and vice-versa. The noun or pronoun precedes the verb. Example: crumb-find cockroach-eat (inflections omitted) A noun may have a prefix specifying definiteness and number. A verb has 5 suffix slots. The 1st one (A) is derivational while the others are inflectional. Slot D (which now precedes slot C) is for negation. Each verb has either a single explicit argument (expressed by the preceding noun or pronoun) or an explicit argument and an implicit one (to be identified later). Slot B specifies the relationship between the 2 arguments: DIR direct - The explicit argument "acts on" the implicit one. INV inverse - The implicit argument "acts on" the explicit one. ANT antipassive - The explicit argument "acts on" someone or something unspecified. PAS passive - Someone or something unspecified "acts on" the explicit argument. RFX reflexive - The explicit argument "acts on" itself. If the verb has only a single argument (univalent), slot B is unmarked. Slot E combines a couple semantic categories. IMP imperative - identifies a direct command JUS jussive - identifies a wish or an indirect command or a suggestion etc. FAC factual - identifies a factual statement CTF contrafactual - identifies a contrafactual statement PQ polar question - identifies a yes/no question Each of the above appears at the end of a sentence. The next 2 terminate subordinate constructions that act as the implicit argument for the following word-pair. OPT optative - identifies an imagined, but possible, situation SUB subjunctive - identifies an actual situation SEC secondary - identifies one of 2 things: * a resulting situation * a situation in effect (before, during, or after some subsequent one) ATT attributive - also has 2 uses: * is used only if the verb has an implicit argument; it indicates that this word-pair modifies the following noun. * is used only if the verb lacks the implicit argument, including those with ANT, PAS, or RFX marked. It indicates that the verb modifies its own explicit argument. Slot C is more complicated; the specific interpretation depends on the suffix for slot E. AOR is used only on dynamic verbs. First, the labels: FUT "future" PRS "present" PRF "perfect" AOR "aorist" If FAC, CTF, or PQ is present: FUT the situation occurs at some future time, whether known or not PRS the situation is occurring PRF depends on the verb: * if the verb is dynamic, the situation occurs at some unknown past time * if the verb is static, the situation occurs at some past time, whether known or not AOR the situation occurs at a known past time If SUB, SEC, or ATT is present: FUT the situation occurs at some later time PRS the situation is in progress at the time indicated by context PRF the situation occurs at some earlier time AOR the situation occurs at the time indicated by context If IMP, JUS, or OPT is present: FUT the situation is ready to occur at some future time PRS the situation is occurring at some future time PRF the situation is complete by some future time AOR the situation occurs at some future time Examples: man-give-DIR-AOR-SEC crumb-find-INV-AOR-SEC cockroach-eat-DIR-AOR-FAC "The man fed the cockroach a crumb." meat-raw-PRS-SEC dog-eat-DIR-FUT-FAC "The dog will eat the meat raw." cat-black-PRS-ATT house-in-INCH-INV-PRS-SEC woman-release-DIR-PRF-FAC "The woman has put the black cat in the house." INCH = inchoative, entry to a state house-in-INV-PRS-ATT cat-black-PRS-FAC The cat in the house is black." crumb-eat-INV-AOR-OPT cockroach-want-DIR-PRS-FAC "The cockroach wants to eat the crumb." meat-raw-PRS-SEC dog-eat-DIR-PRF-SUB man-see-DIR-PRF-FAC "The man saw that the dog had eaten the meat raw." ("see" is static) Messages in this topic (6) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 3a. Re: ping Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:25 am ((PDT)) > From: Elsa Nilaj <elsanila...@gmail.com> > > hey guys uhm im new to this whole thing and uhm can one of you tell how > this works? My friend David J. Peterson recommended it so I joined but to > be honest I have no idea how to work anything on it so yeah.. hope you help Greetings! Well, you've already mastered the fine art of actually posting to the list. So, that about covers all the technical aspects. I can only suppose David recommended you to the list because a) you're a nut, b) you've made a language, c) both of the above or e) none of the above. What follows now is basics of any group: who are you, what brings you here, you have an interest in languages in general, constructed languages in specific, if so, what sorts? Have you made / are you making / are you planning on making a conlang (or two or four)? Are you also interested in world building, alt-history, RPGs, etc.? Where are you located, do you speak any languages other than English? Are you a writer (novelist, poet, etc)? Are you a composer of music and / or song? Any one of these other arts could meet and mingle with conlanging. If you have made a language, it's generally very appropriate for you to introduce it -- interesting points of grammar or phonology, syntactical weirdness, example texts to show it off. If you have audio or video of yourself using the language, posting links to those files would certainly be of interest. Otherwise, usual netiquette applies. You're certainly welcome to join in any conversation you see going on at present, or start one of your own. Ask questions, add your own thoughts. If you see an interesting thread and discover that your language does something interesting that is pertinent, feel free to tell us about it! So, that about covers the non-technical aspects. Get busy! Padraic > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:41 AM, BPJ <b...@melroch.se> wrote: > >> Thanks guys! I'm subscribed thru gmail too so I got your replies on my >> phone. I also saw an alert from gmail that they can't forward for the > same >> reason. Oddly there seems not to be any mail to fetch all the same. > I've >> texted the provider's support so hopefully they'll come up with > something. >> I guess that as a last resort I could try to delete and then recreate the >> account. I'll see what's happening till I get home. Gah I hate > cpanel! >> >> /bpj >> >> Den tisdagen den 23:e juli 2013 skrev H. S. Teoh: >> >> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 09:05:25PM +0200, BPJ wrote: >> > > Is the list broken? >> > > >> > > If it isn't please tell me so offlist! >> > [...] >> > >> > I tried emailing you off-list, but it bounced because your mailbox is >> > full. So I'm posting here on the list with the hope that perhaps, > you >> > will see this message in the list archives. The bounce message was > that >> > your mailbox quota has been exceeded. That's probably why you > aren't >> > seeing list messages. :) >> > >> > >> > T >> > >> > -- >> > It's bad luck to be superstitious. -- YHL >> > >> > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 4a. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:50 am ((PDT)) > From: Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com> > > I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all > voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember > reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem > 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and > barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no > singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that > is always sung. Right. Lack of vocal cords means no ability to, well, sing. But only in the sense that we usually think of as singing. Obviously, if such a people existed, and if they even had an artistic aesthetic -- if they even understood the concept of artful communication -- then they would without a doubt devise some other means of accomplishing the task. Perhaps, if their language were signed, they would simply sway and sign rhythmically as well as metrically -- a visual song. If they are able to whisper, i.e., vocalise without using the cords to create sound, then perhaps they'd still sing, but using a whispery voice. Perhaps they would use some other modality, like whistling. Or perhaps you might consider a people with ordinary vocal tracts, but whose culture demands they use them differently. For example, the Hnuu people who live up in the high vales of the southern reaches of the Spine of the World. They are ordinary Men, and thus technically able to talk, but their language is composed entirely of voiceless phonemes. In other words, they always whisper to one another. The occasional click or dental clack is about the only "sound" they make when talking. Over long distances, they have a whistling language they use to communicate certain well defined utterances. Sort of like bugle calls, this is a very limited mode of communicating. What's weird though, is that only on certain nights and not in every year, the old people go away from the village and climbing up above the town, will start to sing. Their singing language is composed, obviously of voiced phonemes. It's not even until a Hnuu tribesman reaches about thirty years of age do the elders deem one ready to learn to sing. It is through this singing that central myths and histories are transmitted. The language itself is not different, but hearing it full throated as it were, is a bit of a shocker to a young person who's never heard anyone utter more than a mere whisper. > Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished > by voicing, You mean like thorn v. edh or [b] vs. [p]? > how do we recognize them in sung speech? I'm no singer by any stretch, but I do believe singers simply pronounce those sounds as they would when talking. I.e., thorn and pee are voiceless; edh and bee are voiced. > Human singing necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Unless you're singing in whispervoice. > Do we simply perceive the > phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the > last sound in "dogs" being /z/), ? The last sound in "dogs" ìs [z]! But yes, I think we simply fill in any gaps with whatever seems to make sense. Especially true in singing, where elongated tones or other decorations can cause problems of understanding. > or are degrees of volume or similar features permitted to vary by singers to > distinguish between phonemes? Why not? Singers already use degrees of volume for other reasons -- see sotto voce. Padraic > Matt G. Messages in this topic (10) ________________________________________________________________________ 4b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:04 pm ((PDT)) Hallo conlangers! Second attempt. First went to Padraic because he fiddled with his Reply-To: header. On Saturday 27 July 2013 19:50:14 Padraic Brown wrote: > > From: Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com> > [...] > > Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished > > by voicing, > > You mean like thorn v. edh or [b] vs. [p]? > > > how do we recognize them in sung speech? > > I'm no singer by any stretch, but I do believe singers simply pronounce > those sounds as they would when talking. I.e., thorn and pee are > voiceless; edh and bee are voiced. I sing, and I can only confirm this. Voicing is treated the same way in singing as in talking. Voiceless sibilants are a problem of some sort because they are so salient in sound, especially at the end of syllables. In a choir, this is usually compensated by having most members leaving them out. -- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1 Messages in this topic (10) ________________________________________________________________________ 4c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Njenfalgar" njenfal...@gmail.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:52 pm ((PDT)) 2013/7/25 Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com> > I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all > voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember > reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem > 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and > barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no > singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that > is always sung. > > Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished > by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing > necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the > phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the > last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar > features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes? > > Matt G. > In Central Africa there is the tradition of whisper-singing, an example of which can be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdqX-MM3ds4 Now and then you can hear the vocal chords activating, but most of it is completely voiceless. I have been told this kind singing developed due to the accompanying instrument lacking a sound-box, meaning that normal singing will completely drown out the accompaniment. Many songs are epic tales of past history, and in pre-literate times whisper-singing was one way history was recorded and passed on to next generations. Greets, David -- Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka. http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/ Messages in this topic (10) ________________________________________________________________________ 4d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Matthew George" matt....@gmail.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:06 pm ((PDT)) Honestly, I'd call that chanting rather than singing. There doesn't seem to be much tonality associated with it. I don't think it's possible for human beings (or entities with humanlike vocal equipment) to 'sing' without engaging the vocal chords. Matt G. Messages in this topic (10) ________________________________________________________________________ 4e. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:40 pm ((PDT)) Or think of toothed whales who produce sound with phonic labia in the nasal cavety. They completely lack vocal chords, yet they sing. Dan Sent from my iPhone On 27.07.2013, at 21:51, Njenfalgar <njenfal...@gmail.com> wrote: > 2013/7/25 Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com> > >> I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all >> voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember >> reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem >> 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and >> barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no >> singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that >> is always sung. >> >> Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished >> by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing >> necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the >> phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the >> last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar >> features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes? >> >> Matt G. > > In Central Africa there is the tradition of whisper-singing, an example of > which can be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdqX-MM3ds4 Now and > then you can hear the vocal chords activating, but most of it is completely > voiceless. > > I have been told this kind singing developed due to the accompanying > instrument lacking a sound-box, meaning that normal singing will completely > drown out the accompaniment. Many songs are epic tales of past history, and > in pre-literate times whisper-singing was one way history was recorded and > passed on to next generations. > > Greets, > David > > -- > Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke > uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa > búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka. > > http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/ Messages in this topic (10) ________________________________________________________________________ 4f. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:36 pm ((PDT)) > From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de> > > Hallo conlangers! > > Second attempt. First went to Padraic because he fiddled > with his Reply-To: header. Unfortunately, this seems to be an issue with Yahoo. There is no way for me fiddle with the headers! >> I'm no singer by any stretch, but I do believe singers simply pronounce >> those sounds as they would when talking. I.e., thorn and pee are >> voiceless; edh and bee are voiced. > > I sing, and I can only confirm this. Voicing is treated the > same way in singing as in talking. Voiceless sibilants are > a problem of some sort because they are so salient in sound, > especially at the end of syllables. Yes indeed, although some composers have used this phenomenon to interesting effect. PDQ Bach / Peter Schickele has quite humorously overdone both ess and thorn. The former most notoriously in The Seasonings: "...and so the shepherd chef sought out a sooth sayer, saying, 'Sooth Sayer, say unto me the sooth.'" Of course, with special emphasis on all the sibilants! > In a choir, this is usually compensated by having most members leaving them > out. That I didn't know! Makes sense, though. If a single soloist can overdo an ess, I can only imagine what a massed choir would do! Padraic Messages in this topic (10) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 5a. searching for missing words Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:08 pm ((PDT)) I'm currently reading a novel with lots of typos in it. I didn't start marking them until about the third one. I remember that a very early typo was a missing "to". Is there any way to search for missing words in an electronic manuscript? stevo Messages in this topic (2) ________________________________________________________________________ 5b. Re: searching for missing words Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:16 am ((PDT)) > From: MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> > > I'm currently reading a novel with lots of typos in it. I didn't start > marking them until about the third one. I remember that a very early typo > was a missing "to". > > Is there any way to search for missing words in an electronic manuscript? You could always try constructing a pair of Fawang Antun's Wondrous and Polyfocal Undinusquamical Spectacles of Curious Property. Antun was a 12th century philosopher and artificer of old Hoopelle. When constructed properly, one can adjust the sliders along the rims to allow the wearer of the polyfocals to see all sorts of interesting things: pink olifants, three hundred pound gorillas, blue mice dancing on little orange cremepuffs, and the like. It is said that Antun was also rather a dab hand at finding things people had lost, finding people that had lost themselves and finding out things that certain people would rather remain lost. Padraic > stevo Messages in this topic (2) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 6a. Re: Fwd: "Even if" Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:16 pm ((PDT)) > From: Lisa Weißbach <purereasonrevoluz...@web.de> > >> For example, my first impression, especially based on the curious wording >> "she was always selling it", is one steeped in sarcasm. The verb itself has >> nothing to do with actually selling a house as much to do with B's attitude >> towards C. In other words, that phrase can, in addition to any "straight" >> reading, also be read sarcastically to indicate that C liked to be "in the >> game". > > Wow, and here I thought that my seminar had already opened my eyes... This > is yet a new and interesting reading of B's sentence - consider my eyes > wide open now! Irony or sarcasm is something I never would have considered > in my interpretation until now, but thinking about it, it does make a > surprising amount of sense, especially when keeping the context and the > plot of the episode in mind. I suppose èvery language must be capable of expressing things like irony and sarcasm in some fashion or other. In English, it's certainly very important, and perhaps because we have no explicit, and often very paltry implicit marking of such, clues other than simple linguistic ones need to be examined carefully. Very often they're delivered straight, and someone not prepared or not expecting anything other than a straight answer can be left quite flummoxed. > Hm, in order to keep this from turning into a usage thread and to steer > back in the conlang direction: have any of you developed ways to express > irony through morphology in your conlangs, such as these verb forms? The World itself is full of such ironies, but I haven't done any actual work on how its works in those languages spoken there. Leastways as far as human languages are concerned, I just assume that every language community has its weisenheimers, smartarses and outright Liars, and thus must in some way be able to handle these things. Non-human peoples --- I don't know if they even do irony or sarcasm. Daine, for example, can learn to do these ( or at least imitate them after long practice ), but natively don't really get the concept. They're kind of natural straight men, especially those out in the Farther West, beyond the lands of Men. Those that live in the Eastlands have more contact with Men and thus a greater understanding of their oddness. The Avantimen are fond of twisting well known aphorisms and giving them a bit of ironic twist. For example: Tha qanet thon herse te watnam lîthen, beouten tha ne qanet him beude te utpumpe thon water. (You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him pump it out.) Or this twisted tale: On fornez this man yoet yahend on thon watersithon with his beuhen ande his arhweuô, ande he was yeconuersend under himself ande this annet in thenwise: âHis alle es senslesse tha wâtet, that te scêten es crudele disportez; for that em ei ne crudeltet en man. Sôthelih ei petô min yncgenôn ongeynes thin weyngcraftinesse. Tes fayr gammelez.â âLa, sôth! Vrouw, hit es sôthelih fayr gammelez; beouten ih nellem ne gambollen.â âHuw nuw!â he scrâye. âHwer for naht?â frôhe se man with his beuhen ande his arhweuô. âYaan gammelez es fayr, swo tha sayes ande swo ih haldô. They ceavant erend swo sam; beouten vrouw, doe tha te thenken on thon stakon. Em ihh on thon gammele for thih; beouten hwat mih sêtat under this gambolle?â Se man underhimthanke, beouten he ne havete andswere te thon frahhe; ande with wiscraftinesse, he thon frahund scôte. One time this man went hunting at the waters edge with his bow and his arrows, and he was talking between himself and this duck in thuswise: âAll this is senseless, you know, that shooting is a cruel sport. For I am not a cruel man. Truly I put my natural ability against thy wingcraftiness. Tis a fair game.â âOh, truly! Sir, it is truly a fair game; but I am not willing to wager!â âHow now!â he cried. âWhy not?â asked the man with his bow and his arrows. âThis game is fair, as you say and so too I hold. The odds are even; but sir, do you think of the stakes. I am in the game for you; but what is in this wager for me?â The man considered within himself, but he had no answer to that question. And so with great craft and skill, he shot the questioner. >> I suppose one could say that the indicative/imperative construction >> encompasses both aspects of the inconsequential, and perhaps a little >> more (as in the first example)? >> > > Yes, definitely, if you choose to use this construction in your conlang in > all these cases in the end. What about lose-lose situations, then? Say, the > king is losing the war against the Ahripf and at the same time, the > monarchy as an institution is about to collapse because its opponents are > legion and quite powerful. The king knows that the envoy will either be > defeated by his enemies, which will symbolically seal his dethronement by > showing that he's no longer capable of taking meaningful action, or that > the envoy, even if he arrives, will probably double-cross his king, taking > this opportunity to gain supporters for a new democracy. (I'm not a > historian, so no guarantees that this is a plausible scenario; but you get > where I'm going with this.) Here, the situation is quite similar to the old > king scenario: the king knows that - no matter which of the two situations > takes place - the consequence will be of the same valence to him (old > scenario: both positive; new scenario: both negative), so he can just go > ahead with his action. However, I suppose that more natlangs have a > distinct "resignative" construction for this kind of scenario (lumping "Resignative" is exactly what I was thinking of! Padraic > Lisa > Messages in this topic (21) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join (Yahoo! 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