There are 8 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Book Recommendation
From: Adam Walker
1b. Re: Book Recommendation
From: Wesley Parish
2a. Re: Naming Things
From: Padraic Brown
3a. Re: This topic made me think of a topic I'd pondered about on anothe
From: Padraic Brown
3b. Re: This topic made me think of a topic I'd pondered about on anothe
From: Padraic Brown
4a. FW: Book Recommendation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
4b. FW: Book Recommendation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
4c. FW: Book Recommendation
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
Messages
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1a. Re: Book Recommendation
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 3:44 pm ((PDT))
I've read them both, and recommend them both. I've enjoyed just about
everything of Card's that I've read, except _Treason_. That one's just
weird.
Adam
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >> I just bought this book called The Writers Digest Guide To Science
> Fiction
> >> and Fantasy.
>
> Is this the same book as was earlier published under the title "How to
> Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" (Writer's Digest Books, 1990) or a
> revised edition of the same? My copy of the latter begins "A writer
> never knows who's going to be reading his book, but I've made a few
> assumptions about you anyway..." If it's the same book, I can second
> the recommendation. I haven't read it in some time, but I found it
> helpful when I first read it. I've heard his book "Character and
> Viewpoint" also recommended, but haven't read it yet.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Book Recommendation
Posted by: "Wesley Parish" [email protected]
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 5:34 pm ((PDT))
I've got them both stored somewhere in my library, and can second the
recommendation.
Wesley Parish
Quoting Adam Walker <[email protected]>:
> I've read them both, and recommend them both. I've enjoyed just about
> everything of Card's that I've read, except _Treason_. That one's just
> weird.
>
> Adam
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Jim Henry <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > >> I just bought this book called The Writers Digest Guide To Science
> > Fiction
> > >> and Fantasy.
> >
> > Is this the same book as was earlier published under the title "How
> to
> > Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" (Writer's Digest Books, 1990) or a
> > revised edition of the same? My copy of the latter begins "A writer
> > never knows who's going to be reading his book, but I've made a few
> > assumptions about you anyway..." If it's the same book, I can second
> > the recommendation. I haven't read it in some time, but I found it
> > helpful when I first read it. I've heard his book "Character and
> > Viewpoint" also recommended, but haven't read it yet.
> >
> > --
> > Jim Henry
> > http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> > http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
> >
>
"Sharpened hands are happy hands.
"Brim the tinfall with mirthful bands"
- A Deepness in the Sky, Vernor Vinge
"I me. Shape middled me. I would come out into hot!"
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the
other horizon. - emacs : meta x dissociated-press
Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Naming Things
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 4:11 pm ((PDT))
> Joerg wrote:
> Semantically opaque personal names happen when people for some reason (e.g.,
> religious ones) take over names from another ethnic group.
Yes indeed. Samson, John, Luke, etc.
> In addition, word elements contained in native names can fall out of use,
> leaving
> semantically opaque names behind. The German surname _Hildebrand_ (once
> a first name) is a name of that kind; it still meant something (I forgot
> what) in Old
> High German, but it no longer does in Modern High German.
Hiltibrant.
Opaque names can also happen when parents give their children naff names: way
too many "celebrity" children with names like Kyd and Destry and Audio Science.
(Yeah, that last one has English words in it, but I'll be devilled if it
actually holds
any meaning for me!)
> From: Patrick VanDusen <[email protected]>
>
> How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages called
> "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the language called
> "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like "Red Hill" or "Green
> Groves"?
In the World, some languages are indeed named that way, though others aren't
and of course, many place names have just such descriptive names. So,
"Thietish",
the name of a language family, does in fact mean "People's (language)", it being
cognate with out Deutsch, etc. Some others undoubtedly equate to "language" or
"speech" (Guggrruug means "talking" --- it also means "grunting of pigs", but
that's
another matter!) . Most of the languages in the World, I don't even know their
own
names --- I just know a sort of external place-holder name: Iconian (spoken in
Iconia), Erronian, Watuguar (spoken in places with those names). One odd man out
is Loucarian. There's no place called "Loucaria", but this is one of the chief
languages
of the Reman empire (called Kemeteia) and means "merchants' interlanguage" or
"lingua franca".
Place names are often descriptive: Uostia is indeed a port city, the Spike is
indeed
a spiky bit of geography attached to a larger range of hills, the old city of
Hoopelle
was originally called Hou an Polun, the place of springs, and indeed buried way
deep
under the ruins of the city are seven ancient springs and the Holy Hills to the
west
do indeed contain a number of sacred sites.
But a lot of these names, while transparent in and of themselves, usually come
with some deeper layer of private meaning. Sometimes the names are a bit of a
joke. The country of Mentolatum is just chock full of such droll names as
Mentolatum itself, Thesetin, Yungwentyne and Spospodont -- all of which are
mangled forms of well known medicines (Mentholatum, Desetin, Unguentine,
and you get the picture). Other names only have meaning in the conlang of that
country: Angera, Talaria, Pycleas, Pylycundias, Avalerre, etc. Others are easter
eggs for the canny reader to find, unwrap and enjoy!
> I ask because this is a weird mental sticking point for me--I never go much
> beyond naming languages, but the act of naming things always seems so
> *forced* to me.
And yet it is the very act of giving something a Name that is at the very
fundaments
of our art!
> I end up gravitating toward names like the examples I gave above, but I can
> never get
> over the feeling that this is NOT how things are named.
Well, it is certainly òne way things can be done... There are certainly other
ways: internal
derivation, taking over by a younger folk of an older folk's names for things
or places, etc.
> Patrick
Padraic
Messages in this topic (15)
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3a. Re: This topic made me think of a topic I'd pondered about on anothe
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 4:44 pm ((PDT))
> From: C. Brickner <[email protected]>
>
>> Ho do your conlangs and concultures address homes?
>
>> Mellissa Green
The city of Auntimoanye is a long, narrow affair bounded by the Bay of
Pilicundas in the east and
The Cliffes in the west. The Royall Higheway passes through the middle of the
city, and forms its
only main road. There are several, rather narrower, streets parallel to the
Higheway. In the wider
northern part of the city, one of the more well known streets is Paribum
Street. The Prime Minister's
residence, as well as the chief Courts of Law are on this street, the former at
No. 11 and the latter at
No. 2. Auntimoanye is divided into âwardsâ, which are postal and
administrative divisions. Side streets
are called âwharvesâ, whether there be a wharf at the end or not; since the
city is built up a way above
sea level, there is quite a large space below the surface for
âyenterwharvesâ, or subsurface streets.
In large part, all streets are given a number, such as âWharff 36". Not all
the wharves are in numerical
order, and there are not a few gaps. Often the side streets widen into plazas,
or narrow into doorways;
sometimes they pass through buildings, other times they are broken up by a
wall, only to appear again
a few blocks back the other way. Houses are not systemically numbered; but all
houses (or viable
addresses) must be unique within a wharff. The numbering / lettering of
individual houses, workshops,
pubs and etc. are about as haphazard as the street naming system.
So, for example, you might find No. 6, Wharffe 33, Auntimoany South right next
to Letterbox A-22,
Wharffe 35, Aunt. S., and above that one, you might see a kind of tube
contraption labelled Nos. 6, 8
and 7 1/2 A, Underwharffe of the Dark Moons. In order to clarify addresses,
people often cite local
landmarks, thus: Messrs Quartnam, Bellows and Blaoratte (Esq.), Red Halle Under
ye House of Opera,
at Wharffe 12, Auntimoany North, only Two doors Inland Therefrom.
Most addresses in other parts of the Eastlands are nowhere near so complicated:
"Imperial Scrivners ---
Wharf 31 Auntimoany; Hamhock Hucksters Row, Pyliciopolis; Garum Hucksters End,
Pottenne." The
local post office's receiving depot can sort out how to narrow down the correct
location, since no one
has anything like post codes or uniform addressing.
As with Charlie's Sefdaanians, folks in very small towns or hamlets have no
need for street addresses.
So you might send a letter to a friend thus: Lartram Wantacge, Sign of the
Unheaded Rooster, Thesetin.
Thesetin is a smallish town, and everyone just picks up their post from the
pub. The idea of at-your-front-
door mail delivery is utterly unknown in the World. Generally, if some local
gets a piece of mail, the
post master will send a runner round to find the folks have something waiting
for them. If they send and
receive mail fairly regularly (such as a businessman or merchant), they'll
simply go once or twice a week
to their local post office to get their mail.
> I found your question confusing at first. How do I address a home? Hello,
> there, Mr. House!
Actually, this is pretty much what we do upon entering our house -- we say "Hi
House!"
And when we leave, we say "Bye House!"
I'm sure that's not quite what Nicole meant.
> Then I realized you were using the noun áddress and not the
> verb addréss. Iâm not aware that áddress may be used as a verb.
Sure. English can verb just about any noun one'd care to verb! I would take it
to mean "assign an address to", as in a function of the Post Office. Addressing
an envelope, of course, means writing an address on the envelope, as does
addressing a card or letter.
> The AHD gives no examples. But on to the question that I now understand,
> which is How are
> addresses assigned to homes in your conculture?â
> There are no addresses in Sefdaania. There is no mail system. No settlement
> has more than a dozen dwellings. The Pyrans and the Humans arrange the
> houses
> in a circle around a village green. The Hydorans arrange the stilt houses
> (where
> the women and children live) in a semi-circle behind the menâs common
> house.
> The Lithans scatter their houses across the valley floor. If a visitor
> should
> arrive looking for someone, one just says, âThat house over thereâ.
Makes sense. Very small settlements rarely need addresses at all. One can see
this in
use by looking at old post cards and letters from a hundred years ago and more
from
small towns. You see addresses like "Fr. Charlie Brickner, Poolesville, Mont.
Co., Maryland".
I guess the letter gets to the post office and it's up to the local postmaster
to sort out who
the heck Fr. Brickner is and where in town he lives! But I guess in those days,
most folks
got their mail once or twice a month when they came up to town to go to the
market.
> Charlie
Padraic
Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: This topic made me think of a topic I'd pondered about on anothe
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:44 am ((PDT))
> From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
>
> Boy am I glad Ben Franklin got the postal system going.
Mind you, just because your emperor is called Hendfast Heruwblôd (Firm-Hands
Sword-Bloody) doesn't
mean the place is uncivilised, and it's not that there's no postal system at
all! In fact post office
(Grôterêhhdomlihh Postez) is probably one of the most robust and far-reaching
entities in the Eastlands.
They maintain offices in every major city in the East, plus several major ports
in Alaria (the continent beyond
the Eastern Ocean), Dharamombas (an empire of the Southern Ocean) and Breasal
(the continent beyond
the ocean that lies beyond Alaria). You can send a letter (scryvonô (thing
written)) or packet (wrîthonô
(thing bound or tied up)) by local courier (only within a metropolitan area),
or standard transferal, or if
going any long distance by horse courier, olifant waggon, airship or train.
Airmail is handled by the Daine
of Westmarche, since they're the only one's who are a) smart enough to sort out
flying and b) daft enough
to go up in a contraption that, by rights, ought to fall apart of its own
volition. They're fond of visiting relations
in the Uttermost West and have agreed to carry mail as far as Nikea in the
Reman Empire before heading
off to their own lands further west. Going east over the Oceans, they drop off
mail to several port cities. The
caravanway is a pretty robust rail network that connects many places in the
East and offers a very fast way
to send something to someone in a distant land.
> Interesting info for your settlements. How do prospective home owners pick a
> house to live in?
This can be a rather complex process. It's not like you can just go on Zillow
or Trulia and find out information
about a house for sale. Generally, if you're planning to move to a new city
within your own country, you
would have to take rooms in a local caravansary or hotel (big cities will have
both) and then you spend some
time scouting out the neighborhood. If you're a jeweler (applies to any guilded
craftsman, really) and looking
for a new place, you'll almost certainly have already corresponded with the
Guild in your new city and will
probably have some sort of arrangement in place upon arrival. You'd just
present your credentials at the Guildhouse,
and the local members will most certainly help you find a suitable house,
probably within the neighborhood where
other jewelers and fine metal workers live and work. As a temporary measure,
you might be put up in the
Guildhouse itself (members travelling from other places are usually put up in
the Guildhouse, and this is also
where students learning the craft may live, though not all guilds work that
way).
In human cities, houses in nice neighborhoods are family treasures and are very
rarely sold. Long term leasing
is a more viable option for most. Of course, if your family is connected to
someone living in your new city,
chances are good they'll already have a house or two you could live in.
The situation in Westmarche is rather different. Daine don't go in much for
land or house *ownership* and
haven't quite sorted out how to work *money*. They also tend not to move away
from where their families
live (and have lived for hundreds of years). Houses tend to grow organically as
people come and go.
> Yemoran houses are connected too.
Connected to each other?
> Do couples have one sleeping platform or two?
Generally speaking, among Men it is most common that a married couple will have
a single bed. Among
Daine, where multiple marriages are possible, I guess they might need a larger
sleeping platform! Daine
houses in Westmarche are mostly made of brick and stone and have lots of
rounded lines, circular halls
and have extensions everywhichway where families live and folks have their
workshops. It's often hard
for an outsider to tell exactly how many people live in a house and indeed
where a house ends and
another starts. Bedchambers are generally reserved for married folks -- young
children are usually
corralled together in a large communal dormitory, older boys in another and
older girls in yet another.
Unmarried folks sometimes live in the dormitories and sometimes have built
their own little rooms
somewhere in the house.
> Are your streets strips or complete streets? What are they made from?
Paved roads are not the norm in much of the World, except in larger towns or
cities, where streets
are cobbled. One interesting thing about towns and neighborhoods in cities is
that they each their
own characteristic arrangements of cobbles -- so a savvy night-walker (or
presumably a sensitive
blind person) could conceivably tell what neighborhood of a city he's in just
by feeling how the stones
are laid out. Obviously, a sighted person can identify the patterns by looking.
Most roads that
connect cities are basically broad dirt or gravel trails. There are a few
exceptions, though. The Royal
Highway (in Auntimoany) is paved; the Rumeliards are fond of paving their
roads, even those that
connect small towns. The Great West Road is a broad highway that extends from
Pycleas in
Auntimoany and crosses the whole broad and vast expanse of Eosphora and Hespera
ending up
near Marloyn in a Daine country of the Uttermost West. People say it was built
by the gods, but I
think it probably predates the gods by a good while. Chalk it up to ancient
aliens. In any event, the
Great Road is uniformly made, twenty two feet kerb to kerb and is properly
graded all along the
way. That's wide enough for two olifant waggons to trundle side-by-side and
have a bit of room to
spare! It has bridges and seems to be a magical artifact of some sort. (Maybe
Class II or Class III
on the Thorfield Scale.) It whisks away the falling leaves of autumn and snow
seems to melt away,
no matter how deep the drifts are on either side of the road. Weeds never take
root in the pavements
and the Road seems to be able to alter itself to the circumstances it finds
itself in. For example, when
Men first built the Caravanway, one night the Road provided them with a grade
crossing and a
gaily painted red and white wicket so the watchman can stop traffic when a
caravan trundles by.
The Daine of Westmarche love the smooth flatness of the Road because, apart
from having invented
flight, they've also invented the actorcycle, a kind of thing that looks like a
wooden horse with a
wheel under the forelimbs and a wheel under the hindlimbs and a homunculus
motivator in the belly,
and boy do the young lads like to run those machines flat out! Breaking is an
issue, to be sure... but
it's not like there's a lot of rush-hour traffic anyway!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. FW: Book Recommendation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 9:25 pm ((PDT))
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:13 PM
To: 'Constructed Languages List'
Subject: RE: Book Recommendation
Yes, apparently it's the same. I think I had gotten an audio copy of the
original, but lost interest. Of course, I was trying to read it out of
curiousity. Glad it's updated.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jim Henry
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 6:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>> I just bought this book called The Writers Digest Guide To Science
Fiction
>> and Fantasy.
Is this the same book as was earlier published under the title "How to
Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" (Writer's Digest Books, 1990) or a
revised edition of the same? My copy of the latter begins "A writer
never knows who's going to be reading his book, but I've made a few
assumptions about you anyway..." If it's the same book, I can second
the recommendation. I haven't read it in some time, but I found it
helpful when I first read it. I've heard his book "Character and
Viewpoint" also recommended, but haven't read it yet.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. FW: Book Recommendation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 9:25 pm ((PDT))
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 9:15 PM
To: 'Constructed Languages List'
Subject: RE: Book Recommendation
I didn't like that book either, but I think I have a newer edition as part
of a series called Writing Great Fiction.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jim Henry
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 6:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>> I just bought this book called The Writers Digest Guide To Science
Fiction
>> and Fantasy.
Is this the same book as was earlier published under the title "How to
Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" (Writer's Digest Books, 1990) or a
revised edition of the same? My copy of the latter begins "A writer
never knows who's going to be reading his book, but I've made a few
assumptions about you anyway..." If it's the same book, I can second
the recommendation. I haven't read it in some time, but I found it
helpful when I first read it. I've heard his book "Character and
Viewpoint" also recommended, but haven't read it yet.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. FW: Book Recommendation
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 9:25 pm ((PDT))
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 7:18 PM
To: 'Constructed Languages List'
Subject: RE: Book Recommendation
Good.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Adam Walker
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 6:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Book Recommendation
I've read them both, and recommend them both. I've enjoyed just about
everything of Card's that I've read, except _Treason_. That one's just
weird.
Adam
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >> I just bought this book called The Writers Digest Guide To Science
> Fiction
> >> and Fantasy.
>
> Is this the same book as was earlier published under the title "How to
> Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" (Writer's Digest Books, 1990) or a
> revised edition of the same? My copy of the latter begins "A writer
> never knows who's going to be reading his book, but I've made a few
> assumptions about you anyway..." If it's the same book, I can second
> the recommendation. I haven't read it in some time, but I found it
> helpful when I first read it. I've heard his book "Character and
> Viewpoint" also recommended, but haven't read it yet.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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