Absent bad behavior, the force put on the Lark's bicep is under 10 lbs. How determined? Swing really fast, compare effort to a 10# barbell curl. My wife is a great swing partner (and game for the experiment, which we tried from both sides in "traditional ballroom" hold). Slower/normal swing was <5 lbs.
Obviously bad behavior clampers, leaners and hangers would change the situation. -Don On Sun, Mar 31, 2024, 12:35 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Another possibility would be either a university dance department or the > department that does human performance (sports) and/or physical therapy. > They might have the required gear to analyze dance motions. But, they will > probably ask, what problem are you trying to solve? Once you have the > information, how will you use it? (Or, how will it help me get tenure?) > > --jh-- > > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 7:36 PM Chris Lahey <cla...@clahey.net> wrote: > >> I'm thinking about it, but my likelihood of following through based on >> interest and difficulty is probably single digit percentages. >> >> The main reason is knowledge as Jeff said, but I do think we could >> improve teaching if we had a deep knowledge of this stuff. >> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 15:45 Joe Harrington <contradancer...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Are you actually thinking of doing this? Why? Would it help anyone >>> dance better? If someone does this kind of thing for work and could tap >>> into those resources, it might be practical. Otherwise, this looks like >>> the kind of setup that would require significant thought, effort, and >>> expense. >>> >>> One approach would be to green-suit up in a video-game studio, and then >>> tap into the calculations that the game software uses to create game >>> motions from human ones. That wouldn't be measurements of forces directly, >>> but it would be pretty comprehensive. You'd know where all the momentum >>> went and it would calculate transmitted forces through every surface, which >>> you could sum for the hand and arm, etc. They might also have force >>> sensors of some sort. Somebody must have, at some point in the development >>> of those systems. >>> >>> --jh-- >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 3:17 PM Chris Lahey <cla...@clahey.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I >>>> can definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the >>>> tension, but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces >>>> (including possibly torque around a vertical axis)? >>>> >>>> I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on >>>> the ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder. >>>> >>>> Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 >>>> axes (plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus >>>> would cost to build? >>>> >>>> Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much >>>> lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is >>>> that feels bad in some natural way. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the >>>>> world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list? >>>>> I >>>>> decided the better of it and didn't send it. Ok, I guess I was wrong... >>>>> >>>>> What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of >>>>> course, there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor >>>>> idea. >>>>> >>>>> As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal >>>>> force, as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing. For >>>>> physics buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a >>>>> swing that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x >>>>> faster rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much >>>>> outward force to support. Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between >>>>> the centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens, >>>>> which I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's >>>>> an outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or >>>>> nearly 90 pounds. Much of that will be borne by the friction between the >>>>> dancer's feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting >>>>> dancer(s). How much depends on how they lean. For a standard swing (2 >>>>> rotations per 8 beats), it's just under 40 lbs. Fortunately, you only >>>>> have >>>>> to hold it for four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you >>>>> accelerate and decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will >>>>> then >>>>> be higher. >>>>> >>>>> ...and now I add... >>>>> >>>>> Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat >>>>> misleading ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation. >>>>> >>>>> The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation >>>>> (centripetal, actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically >>>>> violate >>>>> when we dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many >>>>> light rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, >>>>> and bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another, >>>>> storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step. We >>>>> effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to >>>>> our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms >>>>> and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there. >>>>> >>>>> With that in mind, consider this model of a swing. Each dancer's >>>>> upper half is trying to execute rigid circular motion. Our lower bodies >>>>> (hips down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there. >>>>> So, >>>>> drop my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a >>>>> minute). The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 >>>>> degree corners on each beat. Consider the left foot. In a standard swing >>>>> (2x in 8 beats), it is walking a square, directing momentum along the >>>>> sides >>>>> of the square that the upper body picks up and turns into rotation. Half >>>>> of each square side brings that leg closer to the middle, the other half >>>>> takes it farther away. We land, push off, and do it again and again. That >>>>> push-off supports the centripetal needs of both legs (through the hip >>>>> joint) and some of the upper body. If there is an outward lean off the >>>>> right foot, additional centripetal support is needed from either the legs >>>>> or arms. The right foot is mainly a pivot, while both feet support >>>>> gravitational weight. >>>>> >>>>> Good dancers constantly adjust how far out their left feet land on >>>>> each step and how hard they push off, simultaneously satisfying both their >>>>> centripetal needs and the required spin rate. This lets them control how >>>>> much inward force they draw from their feet into the upper-body rotation >>>>> to >>>>> supplement the arms. That reduces the support needed from the arms well >>>>> below 45 lbs. It can reduce it to zero. Tweaking the lean also adjusts >>>>> where the axis of rotation is, to balance the different masses of the >>>>> dancers and make their differing force impulses produce matched torque >>>>> impulses. Dancers use the beat to step in sync with the other dancer's >>>>> legs, or these torque impulses would come at different times, and the >>>>> swing >>>>> would wobble and fall apart, as Chris Lacey alluded to. >>>>> >>>>> So, yeah, it's complicated, yet even children solve this problem when >>>>> they swing. Everyone is an intuitive physicist! And, each time I think >>>>> about this kind of thing, I get more amazed at the engineers who make >>>>> robots. Has anyone taught a robot to do a contra swing, yet? >>>>> >>>>> --jh-- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 3:24 PM Julian Blechner < >>>>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I >>>>>> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a >>>>>> complaint about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>>>>> >>>>>> That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >>>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a >>>>>> variety >>>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>>>>> >>>>>> The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the >>>>>> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >>>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>>>>> fairly petite. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I >>>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >>>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing >>>>>> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? >>>>>> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because >>>>>> what >>>>>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand >>>>>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>>>>> >>>>>> In dance, >>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington < >>>>>> contradancer...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the >>>>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a >>>>>>> number of >>>>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same >>>>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the >>>>>>> robin's >>>>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> provide equal support in the swing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers >>>>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow >>>>>>> bent >>>>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my >>>>>>> elbow, >>>>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major >>>>>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff >>>>>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on >>>>>>> top >>>>>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >>>>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the >>>>>>> shoulder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --jh-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>>>>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JJ, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the >>>>>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is >>>>>>>> dancing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having >>>>>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or >>>>>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall >>>>>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy >>>>>>>> mediums >>>>>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom >>>>>>>> hold >>>>>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even >>>>>>>> seasoned >>>>>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip >>>>>>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" >>>>>>>>> end >>>>>>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). >>>>>>>>> If my >>>>>>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to >>>>>>>>> consciously tell >>>>>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes >>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching >>>>>>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick >>>>>>>>> with the >>>>>>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>>>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the >>>>>>>>>> norm." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember >>>>>>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the >>>>>>>>>> gents I >>>>>>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 >>>>>>>>>> when I >>>>>>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I >>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra >>>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in >>>>>>>>>>> a way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is >>>>>>>>>>> especially true >>>>>>>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>>>>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, >>>>>>>>>>> all that >>>>>>>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than >>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's >>>>>>>>>>> role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a >>>>>>>>>>> moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral >>>>>>>>>>> swing", >>>>>>>>>>> which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right >>>>>>>>>>> arms are >>>>>>>>>>> around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the >>>>>>>>>>> other's right >>>>>>>>>>> arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left >>>>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>>>> around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it >>>>>>>>>>> almost >>>>>>>>>>> never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like >>>>>>>>>>> a lady. >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it >>>>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it >>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>>>>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors >>>>>>>>>>> when we >>>>>>>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I >>>>>>>>>>> were an >>>>>>>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>>>>>>>> change... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role >>>>>>>>>>> when they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and >>>>>>>>>>> uncomfortable >>>>>>>>>>> in the extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, >>>>>>>>>>> growls, >>>>>>>>>>> and looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I >>>>>>>>>>> haven't >>>>>>>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, >>>>>>>>>>> even though >>>>>>>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>>>>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's >>>>>>>>>>> back in the >>>>>>>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people >>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's >>>>>>>>>>> terrible, >>>>>>>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the >>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is >>>>>>>>>>> outside >>>>>>>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right >>>>>>>>>>> elbow, >>>>>>>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing >>>>>>>>>>> pain >>>>>>>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand >>>>>>>>>>> from my >>>>>>>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>>>>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>>>>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it >>>>>>>>>>> can hurt >>>>>>>>>>> the lark. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>>>>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the >>>>>>>>>>> entire >>>>>>>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, >>>>>>>>>>> if they >>>>>>>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also >>>>>>>>>>> light >>>>>>>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make >>>>>>>>>>> for more >>>>>>>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, >>>>>>>>>>> though. Only >>>>>>>>>>> pull forward. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --jh-- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra >>>>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought >>>>>>>>>>>> about this email thread and observations. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Short and simple: >>>>>>>>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>>>>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>>>>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a >>>>>>>>>>>> lark, with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type >>>>>>>>>>>> position. >>>>>>>>>>>> As we engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, >>>>>>>>>>>> and it >>>>>>>>>>>> guided things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an >>>>>>>>>>>> experienced >>>>>>>>>>>> dancer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>>>>> -Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra >>>>>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go >>>>>>>>>>>>> above the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would >>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitively >>>>>>>>>>>>> think that having that rule/understanding might make it easier >>>>>>>>>>>>> for dancers >>>>>>>>>>>>> to make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> robin’s arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the lark’s >>>>>>>>>>>>> hand is typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the >>>>>>>>>>>>> lark’s in >>>>>>>>>>>>> things like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so >>>>>>>>>>>>> having the >>>>>>>>>>>>> hand/arm orientations the same in the swing would also seem more >>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive >>>>>>>>>>>>> to me if I were just learning this swing. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>>>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 >>>>>>>>>>>>> - for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Though >>>>>>>>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're >>>>>>>>>>>>> working on >>>>>>>>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your >>>>>>>>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group >>>>>>>>>>>>> has been >>>>>>>>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 >>>>>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms >>>>>>>>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing >>>>>>>>>>>>> with his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as >>>>>>>>>>>>> the hold >>>>>>>>>>>>> you use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left >>>>>>>>>>>>> hand and her >>>>>>>>>>>>> right hand.) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will >>>>>>>>>>>>> *always* go above the Lark's arm? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >>>>>>>>>>>>> height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>>>>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kat, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your >>>>>>>>>>>>> photo. When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is >>>>>>>>>>>>> what I call a >>>>>>>>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together >>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than >>>>>>>>>>>>> further apart. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>>>>>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 >>>>>>>>>>>>> dancers at a >>>>>>>>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was >>>>>>>>>>>>> using it! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>> gripped my arm. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top >>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen felt >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping >>>>>>>>>>>>> - it was >>>>>>>>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> want your >>>>>>>>>>>>> weight! People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people >>>>>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>>>>> their own weight then all the connection has to do is counter >>>>>>>>>>>>> centrifugal >>>>>>>>>>>>> force and that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz >>>>>>>>>>>>> on the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their >>>>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>> balance and weight. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>>>>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is >>>>>>>>>>>>> taught badly, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> can't afford >>>>>>>>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can >>>>>>>>>>>>> Swing at high >>>>>>>>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I >>>>>>>>>>>>> just slow >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take >>>>>>>>>>>>> their own >>>>>>>>>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you >>>>>>>>>>>>> will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They >>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel >>>>>>>>>>>>> and takes >>>>>>>>>>>>> some getting used to. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing ( >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you >>>>>>>>>>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>>>>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Happy dancing, >>>>>>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 362 & 07802 940 574 >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>>>>>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference >>>>>>>>>>>>> between a >>>>>>>>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing >>>>>>>>>>>>> dance with >>>>>>>>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing >>>>>>>>>>>>> with EVERY >>>>>>>>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked >>>>>>>>>>>>> to dance. >>>>>>>>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than >>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>>>>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their >>>>>>>>>>>>> contra >>>>>>>>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of >>>>>>>>>>>>> conduct which >>>>>>>>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear >>>>>>>>>>>>> he would >>>>>>>>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it’s >>>>>>>>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when >>>>>>>>>>>>> they come >>>>>>>>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> line, it is >>>>>>>>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with >>>>>>>>>>>>> whoever comes >>>>>>>>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might >>>>>>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>>>>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>>>>> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in >>>>>>>>>>>>> our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in >>>>>>>>>>>>> our culture? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> closer, crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has >>>>>>>>>>>>> its own >>>>>>>>>>>>> intimacy to me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a >>>>>>>>>>>>> bit more >>>>>>>>>>>>> space - though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it something else? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset >>>>>>>>>>>>> might entail? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>>>>> He/him >>>>>>>>>>>>> Western Mass >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >
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