On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 04:33:08PM -0400, Austin wrote:

> You are all missing the easiest solution:
> --- unite contib and main ---

No way in hell... not the way things currently stand.

> There is nothing easier than this.

There is nothing more difficult than this.

> - no need to explain the difference to everyone
> - no need to try to tell the world that contrib exists
> - no need for users to configure multiple repositories
> - no need to move apps back and forth

Sure, this sounds easy from a development standpoint.  Reconsider this from
a support standpoint.  As things currently are, this is a horrid idea.

> The only drawbacks would be:
> - more security updates (this could lead to safer distro though, ditch the  
> unsafe apps altogether)

Really?  Some of those things are in contribs for precisely that reason...
people need/want the apps but we've recognized them as being unsafe(ish).
People moaned and complained about wu-ftpd going to contribs.  People
complained on the proposal of moving uucp to contribs.  People complained
about sendmail...  so we ditch those altogether?  Or do we do what we
typically do and try to placate everyone and keep them there making the
distro even more insecure?

> - we would have to ditch some apps to make it fit on one DVD (we could 
> easily  remove some crap from contrib, leading to more raliable/useful 
> apps!)

Which would involve more QA, more testing, more post-release support, more
developers paying attention to what's in contribs, and just plain old more
of everything.  People think it's bad enough with just the packages in main,
but you want to double that with the stuff in contribs?  The more packages
we provide, the more room for error, the more bugs, the more post-release
support, the more QA, the more testing, the more validation... can I say
"more more more"?  =)

> The major advantages would be:
> - Mandrake would outshine debian and suse in number of packages

I didn't know we were in a contest for the number of packages we provided.
I thought the question was quality, not quantity.

> - people would get used to having thier dependencies met by urpmi FROM 
> DVD/CD,  and would find it hard to live without urpmi, or go back to slow 
> and high  bandwidth apt-get

Sure, but if we're getting rid of the "crap" and "insecure" stuff (which I
don't believe would happen, but let's pretend for the sake of argument),
external repositories would *still* exist, so what's the change?  And the
apt-get argument is silly... people who like apt-get will still pine for
apt-get, whether contribs and main are merged or not.

> In other words, going back to any other distro would suck... fewer 
> packages,  more complicated dependencies, no DVD with everything, more 
> downloading from  the net... etc. etc.

I don't see this argument.  SUSE isn't available on the net like Mandrake
is, so everything you get is on a DVD anyways.  Other than the obvious
arguments about Mandrake being better, there is no difference between the
two.  They would both be distributed on DVD.  Now, if I was a longtime SUSE
user, why would merging contribs and main mean anything to me?

Debian is a different story, but it's free, and people dislike paying for
stuff, so they'd use it anyways... bandwidth be damned.

> There would of course have to be a separate, server-specific version of the 
> distro too, which would probably be small and out of date, but this is 
> already  the case anyway (can you say SNF?).

SNF is dead.  MNF still exists, and Corporate Server is what you mean to
refer to (MNF is not server-specific, it's application-specific).

> Think it over before you flame me.

Sorry Austin... I can see your intentions are good, but I think I would have
to resign before seeing this come to pass unless some more dedicated help
was hired to compensate for the sheer explosion in the number of packages to
support.

I am not at all interested in supporting a merger of contribs and main
unless there is a *lot* more help in supporting it.  The developers get it
easy and to them, this would be more work but still manageable due to the
community.  For us end-support folk, who are less than 10% the size of the
development team, this is an absolute nightmare waiting to happen.

-- 
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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