On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:03:39 -0800 Ben Reser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ben,

I've been using UNIX systems since the 70s, MINIX when Linus announced
Linux, and Linux exclusively since RH4.1 -- My post was not intended to
get help or condescending responses; it was intended to shed light on some
complacency that's been creeping in.  Mandrake has been putting out great
distros; but there have been some problems creeping in.

> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 11:02:35AM -0500, Pierre Fortin wrote:
> > 1**. ohphone was not compiled properly -- this is *important* in that
> > it is used to support *my* users who are scattered hundreds of miles
> > away --

> To have any possibility to get this fixed it'd have to get reported.
> That's what MandrakeExpert is for.  If people provide clear instructions
> on what is broken.  And others can replicate it, then it will get fixed
> and it will have an update produced for it.  I don't think ohphone is
> all that highly used of an application (I could be wrong).  Which
> probably has something to do with why the issues haven't come to life.
> But just saying "It doesn't work," is not helpful.  Provide details.
> What are the error messages you are getting etc...

I suppose these threads don't count:
http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/archives/cooker/2002-11/msg00604.php
http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/archives/cooker/2002-11/msg00810.php
http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/archives/cooker/2002-11/msg02166.php

[FSCK!!!!  Now Klipper's "Actions Enabled" just got magically turned back
on! :^P ]

> > 2. after a few weeks on 9.0, the system became so unstable and flaky
> > (many reboots required) that hardware problems were seriously
> > considered as the cause.  "fix" was to delete ~/.kde and reboot.
> 
> I'd suspect this is a KDE issue, not a Mandrake issue.  Yes Mandrake
> ships KDE.  But it is a huge piece of software.  There is no way they
> can hope to fix every bug in it.  I have ultimately quit using KDE
> because I found it to be unstable.  That's not Mandrake's fault, it's
> the KDE developers fault.

But when my favorite distro hangs the entire system...  so much so, that I
initially suspected bad hardware... who do I report this to?  Is it a
Linux problem or is it a KDE problem simply because something in .kde
triggered the real bug(s)..?  Unless I nail down the problem to some small
subset of .kde, all I usually get is "I think...", "try this...", "not my
problem...", etc...  

> > 3a. remote support was initially complicated by unannounced shorewall
> > default installation that did not consider ssh important, drove me
> > nuts until I found it.
> 
> IIRC the installer asks you what you want to have open.  But at any rate
> I think shoerwall closing ssh is a *GOOD* idea.  Most desktop users will
> not need to ssh into their box.  Those that do can easily open it.

I did a fresh 9.0 install on a friend's new WalMart system, and I don't
recall being asked -- I would have noticed that, unless it was obscured.

> > 3b. shorewall complicated switching between LAN and modem access to
> > 'net
> 
> How?  Details?  Statements like this are useless to us.

Maybe if you had a laptop and switched between LAN and modem, you'd
understand.  Besides, are you one of the "fixers"?  If not, why are you
stating "useless to *us*"?  Too many "helpers" are getting in the way IMO.

Oh yeah...  on the subject of modems....  WalMart PCs require a special
script to find the modem I/O & IRQ, yet that was not included in 9.0... 
Try finding that out (after you've installed 9.0 over the crappy
pre-installed 8.2) when you can't use the modem...  if I hadn't had my
laptop handy, the user would likely have returned the unit and a new
computer user would have gone elsewhere.


> > 5. Installation of LinModem support was more troublesome than in 8.2
> > -- while not delivered in a Mandrake distro, at least ensuring that a
> > new distro does not make installation of LinModem s/w more difficult
> > is important to winning new users.
> 
> Harder how?  Details again?

Back to what I asked: don't make it harder!  In 8.2, linmodem installation
was simply a matter of downloading the code and running the script (that's
all I'm suggesting be checked before release).  In 9.0, even though I
asked for a development install/upgrade, not all the -devel files were
installed... yet another issue that would turn a new user away from Mdk.

> > 6. CD filesystem got confused (displaying "??????" for each filename
> > and permission denied) requiring a reboot (there's that fscking word
> > again)
> 
> Yes this is supermount for you.  

Why is it no one seems to get the irony here?  It's superMOUNT --- once a
filesystem is MOUNTed, what does the MOUNT s/w have to do with actually
ACCESSing the filesystem?  Or is supermount just a pile of spaghetti code?

> > 7. Sound stopped working (lsof showed several apps accessing sound) --
> > rebooted to fix.
> 
> You rebooted?  All you had to do was kill the sound apps, more than
> likely.  I'm amazed that you know of lsof but not the kill command.

Look...  I can piss around killing apps, restarting others, determining
the right things to do; but by then, I've missed the broadcast!  You have
NO idea how much I *HATE* rebooting; but I weigh my actions vs what I'm
trying to do. Don't you?

> > Note that Linux is touted as a no-reboot-required OS...  I have had to
> > reboot 9.0 so many times that it feels like I must have accidentally
> > installed W9x...  :^P
> 
> No it's touted as an OS that requires less reboots.  But some of the
> reboots you've described above were not necessary.  You simply rebooted
> because you didn't know how to fix them.

"didn't know how"...  Hmmm...  try replicating the code changes I made to
start an install that looked like this: 
http://pfortin.com/Linux/live_install.html

Hint: no added code

Enjoy,
Pierre

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