To the other people on the list: I never used term fascist for OTPOR / as far as I can remember, and if I did, I want to withdraw it/ because fascism for me has a rather definite historical meaning. I said this, however: "It is true, you have OTPOR, you have Free Serbia , two disgusting neoliberal youth camps, related to DOS goons, linked to Z". I have never called October the 5Th to be a progressive revolution. Please, find the place where I have said this. Lies, lies, lies....Why is so difficult to build a political position on arguments? Oh yes, because than you would have to find arguments..... Some people, present on this list, are making this peculiar sort of judgement: >But Andrej now says Otpor and the like are - fascists. So fascists were the shock troops of a revolution and the revolution was progressive. With this kind of reasoning, it is impossible for one to agree. One must SUBMIT. It is all explained by the forefather of such reasoning, Mr. H. < And, >Ain't it charming to see Andrej (now) calling Otpor fascist. I don't recall >him saying that before, but OK. I wasn't lazy, so I went to the list archives to find messages these men built this "argument" on. And here are those letters: Reply from Andrej (sept. 5th) Dear Jared, I respect your work very much, as I have told you this several times. We, from "Resistance web site",are publishing , with your kind permission many of your articles, or articles coming from your site. So, please read this as a friendly suggestion: Milosevic is a criminal. Big time. I am living under his yoke, witnessing his crimes everyday. He is a little ruthless dictator, with a mad wife, with two idiotic kids. He is privatizing everything, he has organized a perfect cleptocracy for his family and his oligarchy, he had killed almost all of the opposition press ( it's low quality notwithstanding, we are talking about freedom of thought and expression); he have stolen the elections in 1996; his thugs are beating up kids in the middle of the day, his assassins are killing or kidnapping people ( Ivan Stambolic is the most recent example) - the list of his crimes in internal politics is endless. And, with regards to his external politics, people form all over the world, good people , are deceived with his leftist-anti imperialist mask: he is not a leftist. He is haunting leftist, authentic radicals, in his own country. His party is the richest party on this side of Colorado river. He is using every opportunity, and every emotion, to preserve power and to stay on power. Yugoslavia is a wonderful country. Yugoslav people deserve help and protection from "antiserb racism" which we are all witnesses of. We should fight back this idea of collective crime which is casted upon us. But Yugoslavia is not Milosevic. Fighting against imperialism, injustices made to Yugoslavs, new wars which Imperial States of AmeriKKKa are instigating on this soil, slowly but very skillfully, is possible without attachment to Milosevic. He doesn't deserve it. I guess that my word isn't enough, but please just acknowledge that I am an insider, radical leftist and a person who suffered a lot under foreign imperialism and under Milosevic. I think that this opportunity gives me a chance to be as objective as one could be , in complex situation like this. With regards to Chomsky, contrary to what you may believe, his books helped radical leftist here to make a clearer picture about the nature of state violence, nature of AmeriKKKan foreign politics, European Imperialism, shaping of the mental images and representations, and to offer this picture to the people here, with much success. Chomsky helped us a lot. His mistakes notwithstanding. He made good deal of mistakes, yes. But who of us, involved in a fight for social change, for a better and healthier society, didn't? With respect, in solidarity, Andrej Grubacic In addition to my suggestion to Jared that he should reconsider his position on Milosevic and Chomsky, without a danger to forget the moment of US-Euro imperialism and their crimes in the region- crimes which Yugoslavs are not likely to forget- I am sending another Chomsky epistle- answer to some nerd advocating new NATO intervention on ZNet forum. Chomsky is fighting this line of argumentation masterly. And he is reminding us, again, that things are never simple when it comes to this sort of situation, and that we shouldn't choose "lesser evil" in political realm but fight every evil instead. Difficult task? It is. "Between two evils don't make me choose the lesser one!" Karl Kraus said. Please don't make me choose between NATO and Milosevic, as my friend, young anarchist, like to say! In struggle, Andrej Jared Reply from Andrej (sept. 5th) My dear Jared, It is strange that you cannot recall our idea- my proposal - to write a book about NATO war against Serbia. It was made in the middle of the war. We had a long phone call, talking over 20 minutes, and I have told you that the only condition for writing for this book was that facts, facts, facts and facts are respected and that Milosevic shouldn't be presented as benefactor and great antiimperialistic factor. You have rejected the proposal , with the words that you have to write in favor of Milosevic because "the whole campaign is being made on his demonization"; you have stayed on this same line and I respect that- I admire your consistency. What buffles me is the thing that you don't remember our rich correspondence , and good deal of it was about Sorosh, Yugoslav "Americanisms", pseudo-NGO's, US militarism and interests in region and so forth. I made clear to you that I am against all of these, that I have even a reputation in Belgrade as someone who is in silent war with Sorosh and his community, because of their anti leftist, anti libertarian , capitalist, pseudopfilantropist and , yes, spy-organization role here. Ask around, I am sure that this "score of activist Serb" do no my name and positions rather well. So, telling me this, is rather a waste of time: You ignore the most important fact about Yugoslavia internally(.) > Serbia - working for US intelligence or for Soros, its private arm. I am not ignoring anything, I am very well aware of this, and I try to fight it, best I can. But, just like you, I am also on the same line: I am an ethical anarchist, left libertarian, radical leftist who cannot feel support towards the State, Government, nationalism...I know only too well how nationalism is being used in class manipulation. And I am witnessing Milosevic crimes- I am not saying that he is the most brutal dictator?- every day. He is not more brutal than Salvadorian death squads or Turkish government, but where are those comparisons taking us exactly? People are suffering under Milosevic booth. This is enough for me. And I think that you should admit that Chomsky was also very consistent; he made many mistakes, but he never did abandon his crucial principal: "Not supporting the government but opposing foreign intervention". He never did supported Vietnamese leaders. He opposed criminal war against Vietnam people and their right to chose. Same for Nicaragua, Salvador , Columbia ( he is very much against FARC as you know, of course).... So, in brief, I don't see that Chomsky did something harmful. Once again, he was very useful to us, leftist community here, as someone who had brilliantly demasked AmeriKKKan imperialism , media deceptions, State violence per se...... I cannot judge his usefulness to American anti war movement because I am not in America. So, i would like to ask you, in the name of courtesy, to stop explaining me Milosevic and his government. Fighting NATO and Milosevic is much more admirable task, and strongly advice you to re-think your position. I find this words, made by Mr. Wood, illuminating in this sense: "... I think that what this debate reflects with wonderful clarity is what Fanon called the "pitfalls of the national consciousness". This is linked to the debate that some of us had just a little earlier. A purely national consciousness rallies to defend the leadership of the "oppressed nation" as its bulwark against imperialism. But an anti-imperialism that is not thoroughly guided by anti-capitalist and anti-bourgeois radicalism simply becomes a defense of scoundrels, opportunists and tin-pot dictators. These latter are demagogues who know the political and rhetorical value of "anti-imperialism" only too well. But what is so deceiving is that their rhetoric always contains a grain of truth. My point is that we need so much more than this little nationalist grain of truth........." We must tolerate a great level of complexity here, but giving support to Milosevic certainly isn't a best choice to fight US imperialism, i.e. to help people in Yugoslavia. Yours, Andrej Reply from Andrej (sept. 6th) Dear fellow, what is exactly the problem here? Why are you constantly attacking Tony about the things he isn't saying? Why are you in constant need for opponents? Hey, we agree with you! What seems to be the problem? Who had denied this: > > Yugoslavia is a tiny country. It has stood up to the biggest tyrannosaurus > and not capitulated. This had a wonderful affect on the world. The Yugo > government is not racists. They have superb relations with Libya. They > have a military alliance with China and Iraq. They have welcomed tens of > thousands of Chinese immigrants. They remain pretty damned cool in the face > of constant provocation. Not bad for a a little country that used to be a > virtual US colony run by a guy who used to be a banker in NY. > I didn't? Tony did not. Tony was very astute in his defense of my countryman in his discourse on this and many other lists. What are we reproaching to you? You are abolishing YU Government from crimes it committed and continue to commits. To make myself perfectly clear: I am not saying that YU government is the worst thing in universe, quite far from it, but it is a criminal organization with one thief and dictator , along with his idiotic wife ( to put it mildly not "rather disgustingly") and who needs serious medical attention ( I mean wife, her husband needs other kind of attention)....Don't let me repeat all the crimes they've committed. And please don't make from me, or Tony, an apologists for NATO lobby in Yugoslavia! My dear friend, I went trough bombing and I'll never forget that experience! I am target of Imperial US and not Milosevic! But it doesn't mean that i should fall in love with one petty dictator because of it. Quite the contrary, I'll fight USA - European militarism and imperialism, as well as Milosevic misdoing. On the more practical level, I am sure that US is helping Milosevic to stay on power; that there is a secret, tacit agreement between these two political Mafiosi, your and mine government, to destroy Yugoslavia: Milosevic for the sake of preserving power and US for the sake of ideological, economical, geostrategical etc, etc, interests. Milosevic is useful to them, like Saddam. As a negative of group portrait. As an excuse for Keynzian, Pentagon economy, ideological justifications, finishing Yugoslavia by Montenegrian secession. Chomskyian balance again: Don't defend governments, defend people! Oppose wars don't establish erotic relationship with the oppressed governments! Comradely, Red and Black Regards, Andrej _______________________________________________ CrashList website: http://website.lineone.net/~resource_base
