Fantastic!
My dear Jared, you obviously do not want to indulge me by stopping this
useless exchange. Apparently, my arguments cannot be useful for you and vice
versa. Why insisting , then?
But the funny part is that you are- obviously not taking into account long
memory of a historian:-) - deliberately lying. This text, this "first
letter", is true, with one minor correction. It wasn't written by me. It is
an enthusiastic picture from Belgrade, written by Ratibor Trivunac, IWW-AIT
secretary for Yugoslavia- I have just forwarded it to this list. With his
signature, of course.
So, this is a lie. Why, dear Jared? Our positions are so divergent that you
do not have a need to use lies to prove your assessments. Here is my reply,
but this is the last message you are going to receive from me on this
subject: I think that this list, together with my mental peace, suffered
enough.
> 1) Apologies. Andrej didn't say Otpor is fascist - I misread his text. He
> indeed said they are disgusting neoliberals. My mistake.
Accepted!
> 2) Calling them neoliberals is really off the point. A reading of the
> Helsinki report on the Serbian sham elections gives a far more sinister
> picture. See http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/srbele.htm I also suggest
> reading "These Djindjic people are brownshirts" at
> http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/djindjic.htm
For an old First World lefty, perhaps, but for my country, in transition to
Third World status, this is a very important fact. We are facing some more
complex challengies right now.
> 3) Andrej denies he supported the coup.
Yes, I have few friends here, who can witnes that I was home :-)
> In the first, he offers what certainly appears to be enthusiastic support
for
> the buildup for the coup. He certainly seems to have some idea about what
is
> coming for he says that he dislikes the neoliberals who are in the lead
but:
> "we think that taking Milosevic from the power is top priority now and
that
> ordinary people will benefit from it. Also we hope that we will have more
> space for our actions here." This is a few days prior to the coup (Oct. 1)
This is true, of course. And I was right. Now we really have more space
here. My magazine "Counterpoint", libertarian socialist political mag., is
now in print. Milosevic banned it. Along with my familly who was left on the
streets without job because they were, as professors, supporting students in
1996 when Milosevic had stolen the election ( he admited this fact).
> He speaks enthusiastically about his friends from Cacak (in a recent post
I
> called it Canak - a typo). He enthusiastically reports that Cacak is
> blockaded - we now know that this was to permit the unhindered preparation
> of the Mayor's March on Rome (I mean Belgrade). This was organized by the
> worst, U.S. paid elements, under notorious Mayor Illic who led the Cacak
gang
> that sacked Parliament, which had made the outrageous error of having a
> Socialist majority.
Jared is here reffering to the infamous letter of Mr. Trivunac,
conviniently, fo the sake of honest disccusion , contributed to me. Comments
are not neccessary, I think.
> His second post is in response to an email from Tariq Mahmood
>
> who had written, to him
>
> "Dear Professor Andrej Grubacic,
> > where were you when the good old Milosevic was eliminating Muslims in
> > Bosnia and Croats and Kosovars?
> > Yours, Tariq Mahmood>
>
> Andrej replies: "At the very same place where I was when Muslims , Croats
and
> Kosovars were eliminating Serbs: on the streets," - in other words, he
> accepts the Western lie of a racist Milosevich government as if it were
true.
Yes, this letter is not a figment of Jared's imagination.
> Milosevich NEVER targeted racial groups, period. That's a slander,
repeated
> by all the Z-niks such as Chomsky, Shalom and our Andrej. In fact
Milosevich
> has always been quite anti-racist, for example making it a point of
arresting
> paramilitaries who attacked Albanians in Kosovo.. Grouping him, as Andrej
> does in the second post, with Tudjman and Izetbegovic, both of them real
> Fascists, is simply an outrage. Ditto with his description of
Milosevich's
I never said that. Jared is very skilfull- years of experience in Maoist
Progressive Labour Party- with manipulating the facts.
What I did say was that I was against war, as an anti-millitarist. Tudjman
and Izetbegovic are, without any doubt, nazi like figures, with similar
political programs. Milosevic, on the other hand, was just a money-thirsty
thug, enchanted by power.
I was protesting against the killing of my country, Yugoslavia ( because I
feel like Yugoslav), killed in a joint operation of western power
structures and domestic oligarchs.
> Now Andrej denies he supported the coup. This sounds like double talk. It
is
> very much like Chomskym who wrote that Milosevich's government installed
an
> "aprheid like" regime in Kosovo - and then when he was criticized for
writing
> this simply denied saying it. With Chomsky and apparently Andrej you can
say
> something and then, like Humpty Dumpty, you can act aghast when somebody
has
> the nerve to take your words at face value because OBVIOUSLY you meant the
> opposite!
Milosevic government did installed apartheid in Kosovo.
Problem is much deeper, with a sensitive historical background, which is
confirming that, troughout history Serbs were victims- just like today- but,
nevertheless, Milosevic did introduced apartheid......
I didnt know that Noam denied this ( or said this, as a matter of fact). But
if he denied this, he made a misitake. But, judging by Jared's devotnes to
fair arguments and honesty (cf. falsified letters), I cannot be sure. But
what this ammounts to? I dont have a slightest idea. Milosevic was killing
Albanians, Albanians were killing Serbs, NATO was killing everybody.
And I was against the war, yes, and I was not supportive regarding the
coup........
I was, as Tony said, and Nestor before him, "way too neutral"- I addmit, but
I think that I was right.
> Please.
?
> Here are the two pieces.
I hope that now, when true nature of your arguments has been exposed, you
are going to shut up. If not, even if you make some/another/ wild
construction, I don't think that it will merit a response.
One more plead: dont send this to the list anymore. I think that people here
do have more important things to do than to read "our" exchange. If you want
to write something, send it to my private address, and promise that I will
erase it only after I read it.
Ciao,
Andrej
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