Dear Vladimir,
This is not what I described:
Vladimir Ivanov wrote:
Dear All,
It is common point of view that,
real world objects could be represented in a
multidimensional (data) space
(I suppose that in our case the space correspond to schema of URN etc.).
Martin's example:
ID of P.Picasso in 4-dimensional space:
urn:crm_actor:aacr2:picasso.pablo/1881-1973
If I get the idea of discussion correctly, there are
a lot of proposals for such a (necessary & sufficient) spaces
that could be used to create(refer to) an unique identifier
of a given object (e.g. museum).
Yes, correct.
And we are trying to find one appropriate space (or schema) for identification.
Absolutely not: We are trying to find a minimal number of schemata. There is no
single schema. The necessary dimensions are not equally known for all persons
or objects.
Maybe we should talk not about spaces and dimensions themselves, but
about transformations between different spaces with different dimensions
that preserve identity.
This is the coreference problem.
The job is to find a minimal number of schemata, that optimizes the mapping
between
the spaces, and makes recovery from wrong mappings affordable.
Another point is, that institutions must begin to define rules how their things
should appear in RDF graphs. Since this is a user group mailing list: museums
are
asked to understand that there is a job to do.
Either in the cidoc coreference group, or in crm-sig, or in both, or in a new
CIDOC working group, someone should begin to make recommendations for people and
object identifiers.
Best,
Martin
Best regards,
Vladimir
2008/12/17 Maximilian Schich <[email protected]>:
Dear Martin,
from an even more flexible point of view, your solution and a swamp of
local IDs do not exclude each other.
Your solution may be necessary from a technical point. Without the local
IDs however most of the published data will be useless for scholarship.
I think we need both, and therefore I am very strongly in favor of not
drying out the swamp.
Please let me explain this with two real world examples. The first
example will deal with local IDs as the basis of scholarship. The second
example will deal with the problem of wikinomic scaling:
First: Local IDs as the basis of scholarship:
In New York there are 10 to the power of 7 inhabitants, which are
surrounded by 10 to the power of 10 barcoded objects. In other words,
there are at least one thousand objects with an ID per inhabitant.
Obviously it is possible to survive in New York.
Consider the following situation: Say a guy has an urgent appointment in
an upper floor of a high-rise building. He runs against a
fire-extinguisher and breaks the fixture. The fixture and the
fire-extinguisher both carry two barcodes, a global one (representing
the brand and the model) and a local one (representing the inventory
number of the high-rise-building).
Now if the guy (who does not belong to the high-rise!) calls the front
desk, both IDs are significant. The global ID will enable service to
order a new fixture, the local ID will point to the exact location of
the rotten extinguisher, i.e. the particular instance.
In the same way we need global IDs as well as local IDs for people or
any other instance we are talking about. Most of our cultural heritage
data is made by local activity and serves further research. As any
research material, the data needs to be citeable. Just like scholarly
documents have a publication location and page numbers, our data needs a
publication location and local identifiers.
If I discuss the identity of an actor in someone else's data, for e.g.
by saying "The guy you are talking about is not identical with Picasso",
I break the fixture of a fire extinguisher. Now if I call the front
desk, for e.g. by publishing a scholarly paper, my own rdf-data or a
blog-post, I also need two IDs: a local one and a global one. Otherwise
it will not be possible to write my machine-readable opinon that "local
ID x is not the same actor as global ID y".
Second: The problem of wikinomic scaling:
It will be a real 'pain-point' for local authors to look up all the
relevant 'global-IDs'. My guess is, that it simply will not happen, much
in the same way as some people write articles in Wikipedia and others
correct the typos and assign the links. In such a scenario, local IDs
will significantly facilitate the assignment of global IDs to local
instances.
I agree that:
"The ultimate way to identify a person mentioned in a source is via the source itself. It is
the " 'he' , word nr. 576, in ISBN 76476-706-757" or so."
However we should not forget, that our data belongs to the Giant Global
Graph as opposed to the documents in the World Wide Web. Users will
visually spot a person projected onto a map, which is constructed from a
selection of a resorted list which is based on a hidden rdf graph. As a
consequence it would make much more sense, if the 'he' person in the
rdf-graph would carry a true 'local person-id' instead of 'some global
person-id in line 576 in the hidden rdf-document'.
Best wishes,
max.
Dr. des. Maximilian Schich M.A.
adr.: Westendstrasse 80 | D-80339 München | Germany
tel.: +49-179-6678041 | skype: maximilian.schich
mail: [email protected] | home: www.schich.info
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martin schrieb:
The problem of identifier creation and co-reference resolution needs
much more
flexible thinking than we are used to. Obviously, there is no one recipe.
But the problem is not so bad:
If I am sure I talk about Picasso, I do not see any point to swamp the
world with
my local IDs.
If I talk about Picasso, I am sure there are millions of references.
If I talk about Picasso, it is good not create new URNs
If I talk about John Smith's marriage registered in Small Village county,
it is good to use a local ID.
There will hardly be a central resource.
If I talk about John Smith's marriage registered in Small Village county,
there will be very few sources pointing to it.
So, in both cases, we achieve the goal: Very few URNs per person.
Think flexible, design adaptive algorithms. If you don't find your
person X
in a global resource, create a local ID, possibly with a complete
different
algorithm.
For instance, if I have a document saying:
"He, who set the Pireaus Bank of Heraklion on fire in 2008, was
never identified"
I may use better a different identifier generation algorithm
representation
from Smith, John George, (1901-1917).
How many more cases do we have to discuss? I think this is already
quite exhaustive.
Would that be a topic for the coreference working group?
Best,
Martin
Maximilian Schich wrote:
I think you are right, referring to a more 'central' ID is always
preferable.
The date-range thing will probably work for Picasso, but I am not
sure if it would allow for a disambiguation of all the Lees, Kims,
Singhs and Smiths.
In general I think, it would be nice, if there would be a local ID
for every person/instance, accompanied by a 'central' ID wherever
possible. This would allow for a much better discussion of the
provided data. Otherwise, i.e. with 'central' IDs only, it would not
be possible say for e.g. "I don't believe your person (local ID x) is
identical with Pablo Picasso ('central' ID y)".
In other words, all parties should publish their existing local IDs,
i.e. their database record numbers... , in addition to the 'central'
IDs which allow for better normalization.
Basically I just don't like hidden information, which could be explicit.
Best wishes,
max.
Dr. des. Maximilian Schich M.A.
adr.: Westendstrasse 80 | D-80339 München | Germany
tel.: +49-179-6678041 | skype: maximilian.schich
mail: [email protected] | home: www.schich.info
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On 16.12.2008 20:36 Uhr, martin wrote:
I agree. The point is very simple:
There will be a long tail of URNs anyhow. If every local database
creates its
own identifier, the list will be much, much longer.
For guys like Picasso,
referring either to VIAF or to ULAN would be currently a very
sensible choice.
(viaf.org : "Picasso, Pablo, ‡d 1881-1973" or "DNB|118594206")
The likelihood of the two would be very high. That makes the world
very small.
Alternatively, we could create a normalized access point "Picasso,
Pablo (1881-1973),
such as : urn:crm_actor:aacr2:picasso.pablo/1881-1973
Do you like it?
I don't know, how many people have exactly the same birth and death
dates and names.
Best,
Martin
Maximilian Schich wrote:
(posted in this thread for continuity - also relevant for URI
policies)
Dear All,
I agree with Martin: There should be a URN or something equivalent
for Picasso in ULAN.
However, we should not underestimate the long tail phenomenon:
* There will be loads of URNs for some single guys (like Picasso).
Indeed the co-reference of all those Picasso-Identifiers will be
hard to resolve. (I would bet there will not only be a long tail
of URN frequency, i.e. how many URNs a Person has, but even a
long
tail of normalization, i.e. in the distribution how often
specific
URNs are used for a person).
* On the other hand there will be a huge load of people in the
long
tail without any URN in norm-data sources like ULAN (think of
'the
guy, who did the non-art sculpture my schoolyard' or 'the guy
who
paints sheep from Naples, but isn't the guy who paints sheep
form
Naples').
As far as we know, there is no way to avoid the long tail!
As a consequence, everybody has (to be able) to generate unique
identifiers.
Kind regards, max.
On 16.12.2008 13:23 Uhr, martin wrote:
Dear All,
To my opinion, Pablo Picasso should be represented by a URN. I'd
expect from the Getty
a proposal how to write URNs for persons identified in ULAN. See
discussion about URNs.
Best,
Martin
Maximilian Schich wrote:
I think we should encourage the owners of databases to use their
existing 'database record numbers'/ /in conjunction with an
identifier for their Institution as IDs for every conceivable
instance.
Of course for 'Pablo Picasso' we would have a number of IDs:
an AKL number, another ULAN number, an ID from his city's birth
registry, a record number in every private database, and probably
an ID in the future all encompassing database (like for e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=257931703 for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso ).
The String 'Pablo Picasso' is one of the worst IDs, as there
might be multiple language versions and different name formats.
For e.g. in the ISI Web of Science the (ambiguous) ID would be 'P
Picasso'; many people simply call him 'Picasso'; and his birth
name is 'Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno
María de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santísima Trinidad Martyr
Patricio Clito Ruíz y Picasso' - (not a joke!).
How to normalize the IDs is another question. As real data
usually comes in long tails, norm data is of limited help.
Best wishes, max.
Dr. des. Maximilian Schich M.A.
adr.: Westendstrasse 80 | D-80339 München | Germany
tel.: +49-179-6678041 | skype: maximilian.schich
mail: [email protected] | home: www.schich.info
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On 15.12.2008 16:20 Uhr, Vadim Soshkin wrote:
I am agree with approach of moving English terms from class and
property identifiers to rdf:label.
Why user's instance identifiers are different? What identifier
are you are proposing for 'Pablo Picasso'?
Best regards
Vadim
-----Original Message-----
*From:* [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]*On Behalf Of
*Maximilian Schich
*Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:05 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Cc:* 'crm-sig'
*Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] RDFS class identifiers
"I want the version that has the class (E) or property (P)
number plus the text in the label and just the class (E) or
property (P) number in the ID."
me too! This clarifies that the node with the ID 'E21' indeed
represents a CIDOC-CRM concept like 'E21_Person' and not the
word
'Person'. However we should clarifiy to the users, that they
should not use a similar strategy in their rdf instances: The
person 'Pablo Picasso' should not have an ID like '1495r3'
and a
label/appelation like '1495r3_Pablo_Picasso'. This seems
logical
from our point of view, but users may be tempted to do so.
Can't we leave out * and #...?
Kind regards,
max.
Dr. des. Maximilian Schich M.A.
adr.: Westendstrasse 80 | D-80339 München | Germany
tel.: +49-179-6678041 | skype: maximilian.schich
mail: [email protected] | home: www.schich.info
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you.
On 13.12.2008 8:32 Uhr, Stephen Stead wrote:
I want the version that has the class (E) or property (P)
number plus the text in the label and just the class (E) or
property (P) number in the ID.
Rgds
SdS
Stephen Stead
Tel +44 20 8668 3075 Mob +44 7802 755 013
E-mail [email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Vladimir Ivanov
Sent: 13 December 2008 07:15
To: martin
Cc: crm-sig
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] RDFS class identifiers
Dear all,
I agree with Nick.
This approach realises the statement that
CRM is not about (Entity and Proprty) names
but about (common, language independent) concepts.
It also helps to manage multilingual version of the CRM when
we have EXX in scope notes and can extend it with "full name"
in a certain language.
Example:
<rdfs:Class rdf:ID="E21_">
<rdfs:label xml:lang="en">Person</rdfs:label>
<rdfs:comment xml:lang="en">[Engish text]... E21_ [Engish
text].......</rdfs:comment>.
...
<rdfs:label xml:lang="ru">????????</rdfs:label>
<rdfs:comment xml:lang="ru">[Russian text]... E21_ [Russian
text]...</rdfs:comment>.
----------------
But natural language descriptions with codes and names are
simplier
than descriptions with codes only!
Dear Martin,
I'am afraid that "stars" (or any other symbol) in
xml atributes may lead to some problems:
1. <rdfs:label xml:lang="*en*">
Some systems do not recognize *en* as English (en).
2. <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="*#E21*" />
and <rdfs:Class rdf:ID="*E21*">
refer to different entities .
Maybe, we should write <rdfs:subClassOf
rdf:resource="#*E21*" /> ?
Best regards,
Vladimir
2008/12/12 martin <[email protected]>:
Dear Nick,
I support this proposal as issue.
I'd prefer however this form:
<rdfs:Class rdf:ID="*E21*">
* * <rdfs:label xml:lang="*en*">*E21 Person*</rdfs:label>
* * <rdfs:label xml:lang="*fr*">*E21 Personne*</rdfs:label>
* * <rdfs:label xml:lang="*gr*">*E21 ???s?p?*</rdfs:label>
* * <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="*#E20*" />
* * <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="*#E39*" />
</rdfs:Class>
Opinions?
Best,
Martin
Nicholas Crofts wrote:
Dear all,
I've been doing some work recently using the CRM rdfs.
http://cidoc.ics.forth.gr/rdfs/cidoc_v4.2.rdfs
The naming convention adopted for the class and property
identifiers
strikes me as inconvenient in some respects.
Currently, the names used for the class and property
identifiers contain
both the CRM code and the English label.
1. If the labels get changed at any time in the future,
the identifiers
are broken
2. Non English speakers are put at a disadvantage
3. The rdf syntax is more verbose than necessary ... this
may sound
trivial but that overhead can be huge when migrating
large datasets.
4. The names have been mangled with underscores to make
them respect
xml/rdf syntax.
I would suggest using just the codes (i.e. E1, P2, etc.)
as class
identifiers and including the names (in various
languages) as rdf:labels.
The result would like something like this:
<rdfs:Class rdf:ID="*E21*">
* * <rdfs:label xml:lang="*en*">*Person*</rdfs:label>
* * <rdfs:label xml:lang="*fr*">*Personne*</rdfs:label>
* * <rdfs:label xml:lang="*gr*">*???s?p?*</rdfs:label>
* * <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="*#E20*" />
* * <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="*#E39*" />
</rdfs:Class>
Rather than this:
<rdfs:Class rdf:ID="*E21.Person*">
* * <rdfs:subClassOf
rdf:resource="*#E20.Biological_Object*" />
* * <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="*#E39.Actor*" />
</rdfs:Class>
(NB I've removed the rdfs:comments for clarity)
It would be nice, of course, to be able to have both
forms and define
equivalence relationships between them.
This could perhaps be done with the rdfs:isDefinedBy
property? but I'm
not sure that it's meant for this.
Best wishes
Nick Crofts
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| Email: [email protected] |
|
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|
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