Dear Dominic,
If you regard this as a new issue, or new evidence of an old one, please
mark your message by "ISSUE", and it will be on the agenda. Every
crm-sig member has the right to raise an issue.
BTW, I agree that a "Page" is not a self-contained expression, but a
fragment. In general, it does not intend to stop at meaningful
propositional boundaries. It might be, that a self-contained expression
is made to fit on one page. The levels of consideration are tricky: The
scanned image as an expression in its own right (or better just
Information Object?) incorporates but is not logically the same as the
incorporated expression.
best,
martin
On 10/3/2017 5:24 μμ, Dominic Oldman wrote:
Hi Florian,
Here is an off line discussion that we should have put on the list.
Cheers,
D
orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Do so, and send my regards. Please incorproate the following example:
To create excerpts is common activity in lexicography and history.
An excerpt is indeed a fragement of a text. The corresponding
expression is a fragment expression. See for example a paperslip
for the word 'shovelfork' (used to prepare la (small) field
instead of ploughing. The text is a fragment of a longer text
dealing with somebody childhood memories
http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg
<http://www.edd.uio.no/setelarkiv/setel1963769.jpg>
The entire paper slip represents a self-contained expression where
a expression fragment is incorporated (in the corresponding work)
Best
Christian-Emil
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Dominic Oldman <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent:* 10 March 2017 13:32
*To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
*Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Hi Christian,
I note that this didnt go on the list - Can I post this to the
list as I think it is important generally.
D
orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126 <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Dominic Oldman
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Although I think then the scope note could be much clearer on
E23 because it tends to suggest fragments isolated from the
whole whereas in this case the section still resides within a
whole. Although the scope note does state "excerpts" I still
think this could be stated far more clearly with less
ambiguity - if it does mean that these excerpts can be
identified sections of the information object within a whole
text.
Can we put this on the agenda for the next meeting?
D
orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
<http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
It is not necessarily so that the text printed on a page
is a self-contained expression, it is in general a F23
Expression Fragment
Best
Christian-Emil
F22 Self-Contained Expression
This class comprises the immaterial realisations of
individual works at a particular time that are regarded as
a complete whole. The quality of wholeness reflects the
intention of its creator that this expression should
convey the concept of the work. Such a whole can in turn
be part of a larger whole.
Inherent to the notion of work is the completion of
recognisable outcomes of the work. These outcomes, i.e.
the Self-Contained Expressions, are regarded as the
symbolic equivalents of Individual Works, which form the
atoms of a complex work. A Self-Contained Expression may
contain expressions or parts of expressions from other
work, such as citations or items collected in anthologies.
Even though they are incorporated in the Self-Contained
Expression, they are not regarded as becoming members of
the expressed container work by their inclusion in the
expression, but are rather regarded as foreign or referred
to elements.
F22 Self-Contained Expression can be distinguished from
F23 Expression Fragment in that an F23 Expression Fragment
was not intended by its creator to make sense by itself.
Normally creators would characterise an outcome of a work
as finished. In other cases, one could recognise an
outcome of a work as complete from the elaboration or
logical coherence of its content, or if there is any
historical knowledge about the creator deliberately or
accidentally never finishing (completing) that particular
expression. In all those cases, one would regard an
expression as self-contained.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Dominic Oldman <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Sent:* 09 March 2017 20:50
*To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore
*Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
So in this case the self contained expression (information
object) identified as page 1 can then be represented by a
part of a PDF image which itself identifies parts (a
physical page?) which are identified accordingly.
I'm still not sure whether this is what Florian means
though - so await his reply.
D
orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126
<http://orcid.org/0000-0002-5539-3126>
On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi
There are many ways to number or put identifiers to
parts of written or printed material:folio, sheet
(versio/recto), page.
If the physical original is known, perhaps a starting
point would be to model the physical parts and their
relationships.
The pdfs in question seems to be facsimiles of these
physical parts. (a single page, double pages etc). A
possible way to model them is to see the pdfs as
carriers of visual items reperesenting the physical
objects of the specific item (P5).
The first example in the compenote of P138 represents
(has representation):
the digital file found at
http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No-MM_N0001-01.jpg
<http://www.emunch.no/N/full/No-MM_N0001-01.jpg> (E36)
represents page 1 of Edward Munch's manuscript MM N 1,
Munch-museet (E73) mode of representation
Digitisation(E55)
Best
Christian-Emil
________________________________________
From: Crm-sig <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of
Dominic Oldman <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: 09 March 2017 17:59
To: Florian Kräutli; [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Hi Florian,
Just trying to understand.
You have an expression that is organised with page
numbers. This is reproduced in the PDF. The expression
page numbers are the same (the information object) but
page 1 is spread over two carrier pages. i.e. page 1
is still page 1 as an information object but on the
application adobe spreads it over two application
carrier pages. Is that right? or is it something else.
If the expression is the same (the same information
object) then isn't page 1, page 1
Can you clarify.
D
________________________________________
From: Crm-sig [[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] on behalf of
Florian Kräutli [[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>]
Sent: 09 March 2017 10:38
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 122, Issue 8
Dear Martin,
many thanks for your input!
Our question at the moment is simply, does a page in
the PDF represent one or two pages of the book?
Later on, we might have more specific questions that
will require us to define the relationships between
these two page identifiers (in the physical book and
in the PDF) more explicitly. We would then also need
to manually assess each PDF as, for instance, we can
not assume that page n in a book corresponds to page
n/2 in a double-spread PDF. A PDF might contain some
additional pages with information about the
digitisation process.
For now we however only need a binary answer:
double-spread yes or no.
All the best,
Florian
> On 8 Mar 2017, at 11:00,
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
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> 1. Re: Pages reproduced as spreads (martin)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 18:24:17 +0200
> From: martin <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Pages reproduced as spreads
> Message-ID:
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Dear Florian,
>
> There is no model without a question. Pages of books
constitute a
> partitioning of an
> information object. Each page number can be seen as
an identifier.
> Paragraphs belong to an alternative partitioning
system. The
> reproduction has its own particioning, the scanned
double pages.
> Each scanned image represents, actually also
incorporates, the text of
> two pages of the reproduced.
> Between alternative partitionings, one can define
includes/overlaps
> relations.
>
> If this is elegant, depends on what queries or
functions you'd like to
> support.
>
> Best,
>
> martin
>
> On 7/3/2017 1:36 ??, Florian Kr?utli wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I have a collection of Books (F5) that have been
reproduced (F33) as PDFs (E84).
>> In some cases, books have been digitised as spreads
i.e. one page in the PDF represents two pages in the book.
>>
>> Is there an elegant way to model this?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Florian
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------
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> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638
<tel:%2B30%282810%29391638> |
> | Email: [email protected]
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Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 |
Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 |
| Email: [email protected] |
|
Center for Cultural Informatics |
Information Systems Laboratory |
Institute of Computer Science |
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) |
|
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, |
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece |
|
Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl |
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