Dear Franco, All,
I agree, we have typically no coming into existence, or it is quite
undefined. This is a nice case to discuss the border cases we encounter
with all concepts.
Typically, the biological process is that of birth or alike. The
stillborn baby may be buried without social identity given. We could
have a type of Birth, with all except the coming into existence. We
could agree that ontologically, there is some coming into existence, but
a birth event does not necessarily end in a new E21 Person.
The methodologically important question is which states of ignorance do
we encounter? Are the typical historical documents, in which the outcome
of a document birth may be unknown as it is in reality before it
happens? Or are the stillborn or miscarriage clearly distinct, because
we normally describe birth as secondary information about a Person?
I assume the typical document uncertainty is between abortion,
miscarriage, stillborn or dying at birth, but clearly separated if the
baby lives. As an independent event, it is alternative to Birth. That
would rather suggest a superclass of Birth, ending pregnancy.
Best,
Martin
On 9/23/2019 12:58 PM, Franco Niccolucci wrote:
As already explained I would better avoid Birth, and even Coming into
existence.
Birth has two properties P96 by mother and P97 by father, the former
being of course more important. Using E5 Event does not allow this, so
you can only use P11 had participant. If I remember well there is no
P11.1 in the role of, but perhaps this may be harmlessly added. If
not, a dirty solution is giving a Type to the Actor involved like
P11 had participant E39 Actor ‘Mary Doe’ P2 has type “mother”
Maybe colleagues can find a more elegant solution; type in this case
is a role, not a property of the lady. But in my opinion only a *P11.1
in the role of ‘mother’ would work.
Best
Franco
Il giorno lun 23 set 2019 alle 11:34 athinak <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> ha scritto:
Dear Franco,
your comments are very useful and I think you are right, maybe
this is
about a more general concept or we may miss something with the
definition of E67 Birth(?). And what about the parents? they are
participants in this biological event? Especially the mother who
acts,
performs intentionally, especially in cases of stillborn, the
procedure
is to start labour. I am concerned with the definition of the birth
event.
Thank you for the feedback
Athina
Στις 2019-09-23 11:45, Franco Niccolucci έγραψε:
> My suggestion would be to avoid being involved in ethical and
> religious discussions (when does the ‘person’ start to be such?)
> and go one step up in the entity hierarchy so:
> * instead of E21 Person use E20 Biological Object (superclass of
E21)
> qualified with P2 has type
> * instead of E67 Birth use E5 Event qualified with P2 has type.
In my
> opinion using instead E63 Beginning of existence (superclass of E67)
> is risky because applying the identity criteria to a fetus is
> uncertain and subject to ethical discussion, so the only safe
solution
> is to record when it manifests to the world with a birth or
> miscarriage.
>
> Best
>
> Franco
>
> Il giorno lun 23 set 2019 alle 10:21 athinak
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> ha
> scritto:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am working on a project relating to historical information
>> (sources)
>> on Seafaring lives and Maritime Labour in 19th-20th century -
we map
>> the
>> raw data to CIDOC CRM (or an extension of it). Historians collect
>> data
>> from various records, such as Civil Registers, which are records
>> documenting persons born or dead - basically, they register the
>> deaths.
>> So I have this case: they register as persons the miscarriages or
>> the
>> stillborn or the abortions, and they assign attributes such as the
>> number of registration, personal information
(name,surname,etc. )of
>> the
>> parents, the place of residence (which is the parents address, of
>> course) and the sex of the aborted or still born (something they
>> knew
>> afterwards). I suppose this is a difficult ethical and biological
>> subject- my question is how would you model the miscarriage or the
>> still
>> born or the abortion? It is not exactly defined as E21 Person
and if
>> it
>> is a case of still born, it can be a kind of a E67 Birth Event, but
>> if
>> it is a miscarriage, I believe it is not a birth event, it is a
>> different biological process, so what is it?
>>
>> Any thoughts that would help?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Athina Kritsotaki
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