Dear Christian-Emil, Francesco, George, Gian Piero, Martin, Milena, Robert and
Yu Lee;
Thank you for all your answers, which cover all aspects of my question
(methodological recommendations, reminder of the principles of CRMbase,
concrete examples of data, issues regarding reification).
------------------------
First of all, I'd like to look at CRMbase and study the different patterns it
offers.
1] The "E85/P143/P144/P144.1" pattern
An almost complete example is given by Yu Lee. "Almost", because the type of
the position ("E55 Butler") is not explicit because the resource
:butler_as_occupation is not linked to the E85 instance. This would require a
P144.1. This is the reason why P144.1 exists. Rereading the E85 documentation,
I wonder what would prevent 144.1 from becoming a property of E85 rather than a
property of P144 ;-) E85 would become a kind of ternary entity linking a
person, an institution and a function.
This pattern has 2 cons:
- The use of a property of property (P144.1) which prevents us from easily
expressing the role/position, even though this is perfectly provided for in the
specification. But I hear you Martin, “Property Class ought not to be deemed an
hindrance.”.
- The fact that the period during which the person holds the position is not
directly expressed.
2] The "E7" pattern
The example given in my initial message.
This pattern has 1 cons:
- The institution on whose behalf the activity is carried out cannot be easily
identified.
1] + 2]:
I think that Robert gives us the most orthodox solution for reconciling these
two complementary patterns. O13 is really excellent here from a semantical
perspective, because: "A coronation event TRIGGERS a reign period.".
------------------------
But several of you have introduced me to more specific ontologies, especially
AAAo, which deals more directly with the expression of historical facts. Thanks
to you, I've also discovered other ontologies (CRMcpr, Parthenos Entities) that
are not directly related to the subject under discussion here, but which will
be very useful to me. So, thank you again.
I now need to decide whether I want to go down the AAAo route, and identify
decision criteria between AAAo and CRMbase in relation to my data.
Finally, Gian Piero, thank you for your reading advice. As it happens, I'll
soon be dealing with iconographic collections, and this in-depth article is
very welcome.
Once again, thank you all for the quality and accuracy of the information
exchanged here.
Thomas
--
💾 Thomas Bottini
Institut de Recherche en Musicologie — IReMus UMR822
Si vous recevez ce mail en dehors de vos heures de travail ou pendant vos
congés, vous n’avez pas à y répondre immédiatement, sauf en cas d’urgence
exceptionnelle.
De : Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> au nom de "An, Yu Lee via Crm-sig"
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
Répondre à : "An, Yu Lee" <yule...@email.unc.edu>
Date : mardi 26 novembre 2024 à 18:24
À : "crm-sig@ics.forth.gr" <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
Objet : Re: [Crm-sig] Crm-sig Digest, Vol 211, Issue 9
Dear Thomas & CRM users,
I am also working on modeling historical humanities data (historical
musicology) using CIDOC CRM and Bio CRM. I am not an expert in CIDOC CRM, but I
would do:
:butler
rdf:type
ecrm:E21_Person
:king_s_household
rdf:type
ecrm:E74_Group
:butler_becoming_king_s_butler
rdf:type
ecrm:E85_Joining
:king_s_household
ecrm:P144i_gained_member_by
:butler_becoming_king_s_butler
:butler_in_king_s_household
rdf:type
ecrm:E7_Event
:butler_in_king_s_household
ecrm:P4_has_timespan
:butler_in_king_s_household_timespan
:butler_in_king_s_household_timespan
ecrm:P82a_begin_of_the_begin
"xxxx-xx-xx"^^xsd:date
:butler_in_king_s_household_timespan
ecrm:P82b_end_of_the_end
"xxxx-xx-xx"^^xsd:date
:butler_leaving_king_s_household
rdf:type
ecrm:E86_Leaving
:butler_leaving_king_s_household
ecrm:P14_carried_out_by
:butler
:king_s_household
ecrm:P146i_lost_member_by
:butler_leaving_king_s_household
:butler_as_occupation
rdf:type
bioc:Occupation
Yu Lee
Dr. Yu Lee An (Historical Musicology)
(She/Her/Hers)
Ph.D. Candidate
School of Information and Library Science
216 Lenoir Drive
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3360
E yule...@email.unc.edu<mailto:yule...@email.unc.edu>
[cid:image001.png@01DB4262.61129E80]
UNC.EDU<http://unc.edu/>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> On Behalf Of crm-sig-
> requ...@ics.forth.gr
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2024 8:47 AM
> To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
> Subject: Crm-sig Digest, Vol 211, Issue 9
>
> Send Crm-sig mailing list submissions to
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> Contents of Crm-sig digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: The social context of an E7 Activity (Robert Sanderson)
> 2. [Spam:]Re: The social context of an E7 Activity
> (Francesco Beretta)
> 3. Re: The social context of an E7 Activity
> (Christian-Emil Smith Ore)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 21:15:33 +0000
> From: Robert Sanderson <azarot...@gmail.com<mailto:azarot...@gmail.com>>
> To: BOTTINI Thomas <thomas.bott...@cnrs.fr<mailto:thomas.bott...@cnrs.fr>>
> Cc: Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
> <Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>>
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] The social context of an E7 Activity
> Message-ID:
>
> <CABevsUGbqoUZiGipgX2YOxDjXYDFVK11jb4xjvOhSRZBJAJB-<mailto:cabevsugbqouzigipgx2yoxdjxydfvk11jb4xjvohsrzbjaj...@mail.gmail.com>
> g...@mail.gmail.com<mailto:cabevsugbqouzigipgx2yoxdjxydfvk11jb4xjvohsrzbjaj...@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Could you just do something like:
>
> Person joined Organization in a E85 Joining.
> The Joining caused (O13_triggers from Crm Sci) an E7 Activity of being a
> Butler (p2_has_type of E55_Type for "butlering" on the Activity).
> Person left Organization in a E86 Leaving at the end of the E7.
>
> Rob
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 11:59?AM BOTTINI Thomas via Crm-sig <
> crm-<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
> s...@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>> wrote:
>
> > Hello CRM users ;
> >
> >
> >
> > I would like to express (in RDF) that a historical person (an E21)
> > held a position in a historical institution (an E74). For example,
> > that someone was the king's butler in the king's household. I can
> > model the link between the E21 and the E74 with a E85 (when the person
> > became butler) and its P144. However, expressing the nature of the
> > position (E55 ?Butler) is not easy in RDF because of the Property Class
> induced by the P144.1.
> >
> > I?d rather use an E7 to model the period during which the E21 have
> > been the king?s butler. However, I cannot connect the E7 to the E74.
> > Is there an elegant way to express the social context in which an
> > activity takes place (a link between a E7 and a E74) ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you very much, in advance.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > ? Thomas Bottini
> >
> > Institut de Recherche en Musicologie ? IReMus UMR822
> > _______________________________________________
> > Crm-sig mailing list
> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
> > http://cidoc-crm.org/crm-sig-mailing-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Rob Sanderson
> Senior Director for Digital Cultural Heritage Yale University
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 23:44:51 +0100
> From: Francesco Beretta
> <francesco.bere...@cnrs.fr<mailto:francesco.bere...@cnrs.fr>>
> To: <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>>
> Subject: [Crm-sig] [Spam:]Re: The social context of an E7 Activity
> Message-ID:
> <be368d0f-4be0-4fd2-a78c-aed3372ad...@cnrs.fr<mailto:be368d0f-4be0-4fd2-a78c-aed3372ad...@cnrs.fr>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear Thomas,
>
> You could consider to use the Social Role Embodiment ? C13
> <https://ontome.net/class/697/namespace/112> class provided in the
> Semantic Data for Humanities (SDHSS) Social, legal and economic life
> namespace.
>
> The SDHSS project is about developing an ecosystem of extensions of the
> CIDOC CRM that are suitable to model information in different domains of
> humanities and social sciences (HSS) research, and connected ones, in
> relation to the approaches and views of different disciplines but with
> coherence and conformity to CRMbase classes/properties and modelling
> principles.
>
> As Martin writes CRM base provides a minimal, I'd say essential, set of
> classes and properties that provides a robust core ontology for trans-
> disciplinary data modelling in HSS. To be actually used in HSS research it
> needs suitable community and discipline driven extensions.
>
> Just to be noted: Social Role Embodiment ? C13
> <https://ontome.net/class/697/namespace/112> models the fact of socially
> being considered as having the function of butler of the king. Or president of
> a state. This is a social phenomenon happening in time.
>
> If you prefer to model an activity, the spatio-temporal acting in this
> service,
> you can use crm:E7 Activity but adding the needed additional properties or
> sub-classes. We can have a conversation on this if you wish.
>
> The point is, in my opinion, to avoid convolutions and technical devices like
> so-called property classes, but rather, as Martin suggests, to identify the
> ontological substance of the classes or properties that are missing in
> CRMbase, to add them and to document them publicly, notably in the
> ecosystem of SDHSS extensions hosted in OntoME, so that other projects can
> join the discussion and adopt the new classes and properties, thus
> promoting the straightforward exchange of information between projects
> according to the FAIR principles.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Francesco
>
>
>
> Le 25.11.24 ? 20:07, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a ?crit?:
> > Dear Thomas,
> >
> > Good question! As a first answer, CRMbase is minimal, deliberately.
> > The less possibilities to express something, the more easy is the
> > matching of other related content across the globe. CRMbase does not
> > offer other constructs.
> >
> > You should not take the property class as an obstacle. This is a
> > question of data entry tools and encoding formats. In principle, the
> > 144.1 property class may in future versions or extensions being
> > "upgraded" to a kind of activity or merged with some kinds of
> > activity. Therefore, the complexity and structure of what you ask for
> > and the P144.1 is basically the same.
> >
> > "to express the social context in which an activity takes place"
> > appears to me rather general, I can imagine many different ways in
> > which an activity relates to a social context, Serving is different
> > from being a criminal, etc. Such constructs are very? interesting to
> > study, but one should elaborate the ontological distinctions necessary
> > to make this unambiguous.
> >
> > The Parthenos Entity Model contains a CRM compatible extension of
> > service provision.
> >
> > But I think the concept of dependent work deserves an explicit
> > extension, is clear and unambiguous. May be other members have already
> > worked on respective extensions, and will answer to your question!
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > On 11/25/2024 6:53 PM, BOTTINI Thomas via Crm-sig wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello?CRM users ;
> >>
> >> I would like to express (in RDF) that a historical person (an E21)
> >> held a position in a historical institution (an E74). For example,
> >> that someone was the king's butler in the king's household. I can
> >> model the link between the E21 and the E74 with a E85 (when the
> >> person became butler) and its P144. However, expressing the nature of
> >> the position (E55 ?Butler) is not easy in RDF because of the Property
> >> Class induced by the P144.1.
> >>
> >> I?d rather use an E7 to model the period during which the E21 have
> >> been the king?s butler. However, I cannot connect the E7 to the E74.
> >> Is there an elegant way to express the social context in which an
> >> activity takes place (a link between a E7 and a E74) ?
> >>
> >> Thank you very much, in advance.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> ?Thomas Bottini
> >>
> >> Institut de Recherche en Musicologie ? IReMus UMR822
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Crm-sig mailing list
> >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
> >> http://cidoc-crm.org/crm-sig-mailing-list
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------
> > Dr. Martin Doerr
> >
> > Honorary Head of the
> > Center for Cultural Informatics
> >
> > Information Systems Laboratory
> > Institute of Computer Science
> > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
> >
> > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
> > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
> >
> > Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr
> > Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Crm-sig mailing list
> > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
> > http://cidoc-crm.org/crm-sig-mailing-list
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:43:52 +0000
> From: Christian-Emil Smith Ore
> <c.e.s....@iln.uio.no<mailto:c.e.s....@iln.uio.no>>
> To: "crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>"
> <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>>
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] The social context of an E7 Activity
> Message-ID:
> <a64045e552d049e39c542d7a7773b...@iln.uio.no<mailto:a64045e552d049e39c542d7a7773b...@iln.uio.no>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The group trick is possible but was introduced as an ad hock to solve the
> problem of relationships between actors e.g families. In my view it is not
> good ontological practice and I consider the CRMaaa solution better.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Christian-Emil
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Crm-sig
> <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr>> on behalf
> of Robert
> Sanderson via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>>
> Sent: 25 November 2024 22:15
> To: BOTTINI Thomas
> Cc: Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] The social context of an E7 Activity
>
>
> Could you just do something like:
>
> Person joined Organization in a E85 Joining.
> The Joining caused (O13_triggers from Crm Sci) an E7 Activity of being a
> Butler (p2_has_type of E55_Type for "butlering" on the Activity).
> Person left Organization in a E86 Leaving at the end of the E7.
>
> Rob
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 11:59?AM BOTTINI Thomas via Crm-sig
> <crm-<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr%3cmailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>
> s...@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr%3cmailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>>>
> wrote:
> Hello CRM users ;
>
> I would like to express (in RDF) that a historical person (an E21) held a
> position in a historical institution (an E74). For example, that someone was
> the king's butler in the king's household. I can model the link between the
> E21 and the E74 with a E85 (when the person became butler) and its P144.
> However, expressing the nature of the position (E55 ?Butler) is not easy in
> RDF because of the Property Class induced by the P144.1.
> I?d rather use an E7 to model the period during which the E21 have been the
> king?s butler. However, I cannot connect the E7 to the E74. Is there an
> elegant way to express the social context in which an activity takes place (a
> link between a E7 and a E74) ?
>
> Thank you very much, in advance.
>
> --
> ? Thomas Bottini
> Institut de Recherche en Musicologie ? IReMus UMR822
> _______________________________________________
> Crm-sig mailing list
> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr<mailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr%3cmailto:Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>>
> http://cidoc-crm.org/crm-sig-mailing-list
>
>
> --
> Rob Sanderson
> Senior Director for Digital Cultural Heritage Yale University
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> Subject: Digest Footer
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> End of Crm-sig Digest, Vol 211, Issue 9
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