----- Forwarded message from Thor Lancelot Simon <t...@panix.com> -----

Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 15:36:33 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <t...@panix.com>
To: Eugen Leitl <eu...@leitl.org>
Cc: cryptogra...@randombit.net
Subject: Re: [cryptography] Random number generation influenced, HW RNG
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14)

On Sat, Sep 07, 2013 at 09:05:33PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> This pretty much rules out CPU-integral RNGs. It has to be
> a third-party add-on (USB or PCIe), and it has to be open hardware.

I think you take this more than a little too far.  I see CPU-integral
RNGs as very valuable source to be mixed with other sources in a
software pool of entropy.  Why should we reject them, unless we think
the mixing functions themselves are useless?

The lesson here seems to me to be that we should be far more
assiduous in seeking out additional sources of entropy and in always
ensuring software RNGs mix input from multiple such sources into
all output.  We should abandon sacred cows like the notion of
information-theoretic randomness (that we don't actually know how
to measure, but in pursuit of which we hamstring our software RNGs
by arranging that they refuse to produce any output unless, by some
questionable criterion, there is enough of it) and pursue engineering
goals we can actually achieve, like mixing enough other-source input,
of whatever quality, with the output of fast generators we can no longer
trust that the adversary must actually attack the mixing function, rather
than iteratively guessing the few state bits he does not already know.

Secondarily -- and sadly! -- we must now be very suspicious of devices
that integrate random number generation and encryption.  Can we even
trust raw hardware RNG output for the generation of IVs?  I would argue
not, because the same device's AES engine could be leaking key bits into
our explicit IVs, etc, and we couldn't ever know.  Devices that offload
packet processing in its entirety (SSL accellerators, IPsec accellerators,
etc.) have even more opportunity to do this sort of thing.  Hardware
crypto offload may still be very useful -- random number generation perhaps
in particular -- but we will have to apply it with extreme care, and with
a deliberate eye towards eliminating covert channels put in place by
people at least as smart as we are, and with far more time and experience
thinking about the problem from the offensive point of view.

Finally, we have to accept that the game might just be over, period.  So
you use a pure software RNG, mixing in RdRand output or not as you may
prefer.  How hard do you think it is to identify the datastructures used
by that RNG if you can execute code on a coprocessor with access to host
RAM?  Almost every modern server has such a coprocessor built in (its
management processor) and you won't find the source code to its firmware
floating around.  Intel even puts this functionality directly on its
CPUs (Intel AMT).  Rather than beating up on the guy who put a lovely
RNG instruction into every processor we're likely to use any time soon,
it seems to me we ought to be beating up on ourselves for ignoring far
simpler and more obvious risks like this one for well over a decade.

Seriously, show of hands, who here has ever really put his or her foot
down and insisted that a product they were purchasing _omit_ such
functionality?  Not chosen not to pay for it, refused to buy server X
or mainboard Y simply on the basis that management processor functionality
was onboard?  Now, compare to the number of people complaining about
backdoored RNGs here and elsewhere on the Internet.  Go figure.

To me the interesting question, but one to which I don't expect to ever
know the answer, is whether the adversary -- having, we can assume,
identified high value devices to systematically compromise, and lower value
devices to defer for later or simply ignore entirely -- went at those
devices sniper-style, or shotgun-style.  Were a few key opportunities for
tampering identified, and one or two attempted against each targeted
device?  Or were a wide variety of avenues explored, and every single one
that seemed relevant attempted everywhere, or at least against certain
particularly high value devices?  If we knew that, in a way we might know,
when we did finally see concrete evidence of a particular kind of
tampering, how long to keep looking for more.

But we aren't going to know that, no matter how much we might want to.
Attacks on crypto hardware, attacks on management processors, attacks
on supervisory or trusted execution modes seldom exercised in normal
system operation, attacks on flash modules holding boot code, so that
under the right circumstances they replace page P with evil page P',
attacks on elements of IC vendors' standard cell libraries (DMA engines
would seem promising); assume the adversaries are smart, and good at their
jobs, and the sky would seem to be the limit.

The sky will fall, of course, when various nation-states' agencies really
start digging for the holes punched in all of our security by the agencies
of others (not my own observation, I should note).  Too much of this stuff
will become all-too-common knowledge.  It's going to be quite a ride.

But I see no reason to beat up on hardware random number generators
*in particular*.  They are, at least, tools we may still be able to
figure out how to use in a safe way.


----- End forwarded message -----
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org";>leitl</a> http://leitl.org
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