CKLN 88.1 FM Ryerson Polytechnical University Toronto INTERNATIONAL CONNECTION MIND CONTROL SERIES TAPE 47a Host/Producer: Wayne Morris DON GILLMOR: author of "I Swear by Apollo" Good morning and welcome to another International Connection. This is actually our LAST SHOW in our radio series on mind control which has been running almost a year now on this time slot. Today we are going to be finishing off the series with a discussion on government and military mind control. Last week we had a panel on the ritual abuse aspects of mind control, and this week we are focusing on the history of government in developing mind control. I am joined in the studio by Don Gillmor who is the author of "I Swear By Apollo" one of the original books to come out about Dr. Ewen Cameron and the experiments that were done at McGill University in Montreal. We are going to be taking phone calls for this show and you can direct comments or questions to Don or myself. We are going to introduce what we are going to talk about. First of all Don, I would like to get your comments about the CBC movie, The Sleep Room. DON GILLMOR: i saw the second half of it, the last 2 hours which dealt with the lawsuit. >From what I understand the first 2 hours was better, a more accurate representation of what happened. I have heard since that they were going more for a truth of the spirit as opposed to truth of the fact - they had scenes in the second half that certainly didn't take place and they used the sexier elements you need for made-for-tv (they had a young attractive woman as Joe Rauh's assistant as opposed to an earnest enterprising young guy as was the case with James Turner). The aspects that were the most interesting in the television show were the fact that they showed the futility and difficulties in taking a group of largely disenfranchised group of people and trying to sue one government, and in this case it ended up being two governments - just what you are up against. And how the burden of proof is on those people. It is so difficult to prove their case - which is to say there is no doubt that these people were damaged and I think in the minds of most people there is no doubt that Cameron certainly exacerbated that. But then you go to the case of, 'well these people already had problems'. You have then how much culpability does the government have and how much culpability does the American government have given that they funded $67,000 worth of an ongoing program. You end up with all these kinds of issues - who is to blame ultimately? I think the culpability can be spread around, but ultimately you have to look at Cameron in this case as being the most specific cause of all these problems. WAYNE MORRIS: But I would also like to put that in the context of the wider picture. We have seen now other groups of victims of government experimentation come forward - I am speaking of the syphilis experiments in Tuskagee and also the radiation experiments that were exposed at the hearings in Washington, and the Presidential apology. It seems like this is recurring - it all seems very familiar. The larger issue here at stake is that governments of the world should not be experimenting on their citizens for military or intelligence or for whatever purposes. It seems like the United States has a history of abusing their citizens and citizens in other countries for experimentation. I am just wondering when it is going to stop. There has been most recently a Bill put forward by Senator John Glenn to try to curb or end human experimentation. There is pressure from various lobby groups. Also Bill Clinton himself sent out a Presidential Memo in March 1997 informing all branches of government not to engage in experimentation on humans with uninformed consent. DON GILLMOR: Certainly that's been a problem, it has been a problem in the past. But I think when you look at it you have to look at the degrees of sophistication that are taking place. Back in the fifties for example you have this incredibly disorganized approach to mind control. The CIA essentially trying and funding anything - anything that caught their eye. There is another guy at McGill - Harold Prince - who was studying the Aruba Indians in Nigeria. They gave him $17,000 just in the off chance that something would come out of it. It was an incredibly disorganized shot-gun approach. In the cases of say, the syphilis experiments, what you have is a paradigm. You will always have a researcher who is ambitious enough to push the edge of the envelope as far as ethics go. And you will always have groups who are disenfranchised enough that they either have no power over what is happening, or they will in fact 'volunteer'. You will get people who are poor enough that they will take the $50 a day and go and be the experimental subject. When you say these things have to stop, I think that's true. It's a question of can you simply stop them by decree - I don't think so. I think there is a kind of organic quality. You always find these things rising up. As long as you have these sets of social problems, as long as you have the medical system working the way it does - the more successful research papers you have, the more research money you are going to get - you are going to have these kinds of situations happening on a subtler basis than they happened back in the 1950's. It's still happening. WAYNE MORRIS: That raises a couple of points. To end this it is going to be a movement of the people that end this, or act as a watch group over these activities. It seems like the government or the various individuals and organizations involved in this kind of research don't seem to be able to put those ethical limits onto themselves for a number of reasons. As always it is going to take public pressure both to expose this, and to prevent future incidents of abuse. It also raises important questions about the techniques and practices of psychiatry as a whole. We are seeing unbelievable rises in the use of ECT today - and these are the same things that Cameron was held accountable for and his victims were reimbursed. It is an ongoing problem. Those issues have to be addressed by the wider psychiatric community as well. DON GILLMOR: The electroshock is an interesting case because it is sort of the great guilty secret of the psychiatric profession in that there is a fair amount of disapproval, but it's always been cited as one of the things that "works" - the reason for the disapproval is because it is very intrusive, and partly because there is still no recognized methodology on how it works. No one knows why it appears to work. They say it works, and they mean in the case of severe depressives who were suicidal before ECT, and now they are not. If you are looking at it from that kind of profit and loss equation - and in some cases they are - they say we have saved someone as a result of using intrusive treatment. When Cameron was using electroshock, there were no limits on its use and it was a much higher voltage - in some cases 3 times highers than the ones they use now. He was using 150 ECT treatments. He had this unbelievably intrusive experiment basically and he was trying to erase all aspects of the personality. Now as I recall in Ontario if you use more than six electroshock treatments on a patient, you have to appeal to a committee within the hospital. I think there is someone from outside the hospital on each committee. On the one hand the psychiatric profession has kind of publicly suggested they don't use it very much and that is intrusive, a kind of medieval thing. On the other hand, quietly, inside the profession, there is support for it. The danger here again is 'what are they doing? why does it work?' It was invented forty years ago and there is still no reason for why it works. WAYNE MORRIS: To me it seems like the reason why it works is that is a very blunt tool - and that it does cause brain damage. The reason why it so-called 'works' is because it just makes people forget their pain and whatever they are going through, and numbs them out to reality as a whole. Whether that is called successful treatment is questionable in my mind. I can see in the more severe cases that ECT has saved lives, but my contention is that it is being grossly over-used currently for people who should not have this treatment, and it should only be used as a last resort. They are using it as a first resort now and that's my objection to ECT. The same thing could be said for psychiatric drugs as well. They are being over-used. As soon as they admit somebody, they are often immediately injected with a neuroleptic drug which are dangerous in themselves. DON GILLMOR: It think it's true that drugs are being over-used and probably ECT is as well. In a way we are reverting to some degree back to what we came from, which is essentially what you had in the fifties were these huge institutions. At McGill for example, the St. Jean de Dieu Hospital had over 6000 patients and the Douglas Hospital had 3000. The Douglas Hospital had three psychiatrists on staff to deal with 3000 patients. Essentially they didn't have the resources to treat these people in any meaningful way so all you did was lock them up and do what you could to keep them from killing themselves. Drugs and ECT are to some degree crude instruments that free up resources in terms of hospital space and doctors - so you give these people drugs - send them back out. The cycle of de-institutionalization which also came out of the Allen, not through Cameron, but other doctors. The nightmare of that is that you are using them in effect to replace funding for other things. Politically it's not an attractive or sexy hook to say we are going to spend $55 million on halfway houses and social workers and psychologists to integrate these people into society. It's much more attractive to say we are going to fund drug research and then we won't have to deal with any of this stuff - we won't need this kind of infrastructure - we will have a drug - the magic bullet theory. It was proven wrong thirty years ago, but it is still lingers - if we just found the right drug, the right combination, we are so close, etc. But you still end up with someone who basically is asymptomatic - you don't have someone who can function in conversations, who knows how to get a job. You are still left with those kinds of things. It's a very difficult political sell. WAYNE MORRIS: i would like to talk about the actual goals Cameron had, why he was doing these experiments, and particularly as I focused on the series on the allegations that have come forth from survivors of government mind control who are alleging that they have been used in experiments involving ECT and drugs, hypnosis, trauma to cause dissociation, and that aspect of dissociation being an important one in terms of the intelligence and espionage capabilities they have. Being able to carry out these operations without any memory of doing them. A lot of the things that Cameron was experimenting with seem to have been perfected and used and now in operational use by government and military. Of course we don't have 'hard proof' of this but the existence of these many people, hundreds of people coming forth with the same allegations from cross the continent and the world in fact, suggests that something is going on. We have a caller. WOMAN: (snip) pick them up off the streets and inject them - they are passing legislation now to be much more adamant about that, and not let people sort of work their way back into society. I think a lot of this may have to do with political dissidents actually from the point of view of what's been happening with the real right wing agenda in North America and particularly in this province. They may feel that a lot of the people who are involved such as the poor who are involved with OCAP and various other situations - may be in a kind of in-between, no-man's land, where hey we can put a lot of these dissidents under the boot if we want to, if we actually use this method. When you think that John Hinkley was George Bush's next-door neighbour's son who tried to kill Regan - I mean it gets all very X-Files when you think about what can be done if you want to use people for certain specific reasons. Also on your show you mentioned at one point that Ewen Cameron was protected by Mila Mulroney's father in some kind of court room situation or something or other - that he had something to do with the protection of Cameron. I would like to know who her father was and what his connection was in terms of the overall connection with George Bush and Brian Mulroney sitting on Peter Monk's Board of CEO's and the connection there - and the political connection where these people are involved in power plays and how now we are getting legislation which is coming down harder on people who are suspected as being "borderline psychiatric cases" so they can actually force drugs on them. I just see a real political agenda going on here. WAYNE MORRIS: Absolutely. This "involuntary outpatient committal" is totally uncalled-for - forcing these harmful drugs on people who have a history of being psychiatric "consumers". Mila Mulroney's father is Dr. Pivnicki at the Allen Memorial who is a prominent psychiatrist - I don't have many details about his cover-up. I think Don Weitz has covered that more on Shrink-Rap. DON GILLMOR: He is a doctor at the Allen Memorial and he would have been a relatively young doctor when Cameron was running things. He was in a fairly junior position. The connection has been I think to some degree blown out of proportion because Cameron's work was relatively secluded in the sense that there was a handful of people he had more or less hand-picked to work on his specific area of research. Pivnicki wasn't one of them from the documents. Cameron's research was fairly well known, it wasn't secretive. Pivnicki was simply there at the same time. Now I suspect he may have had - I don't know if he was sympathetic to Cameron - but he certainly would have wanted to put Cameron's work into a larger psychiatric perspective and try to avoid the political connection. I think that in effect where Pivnicki stood. WOMAN: The U.S. has a sort of nasty history of sub-contracting out their nasty bits and pieces of CIA movements in other countries. Canada being forced to more or less come in on the Iraqi bombing and things like that - when in fact most Canadians don't want to have blood on their hands and why should we? Luring us into these situations so we are partners in crime at a certain level - makes you wonder about Britain always, always kowtowing to the US no matter what is going on. Is it a matter of the tail wagging the dog - and we are really having to look deeper in the subterranean depths - who did what to who at an international level. Why are we coming up with policies that generally are globally having more of a right wing oppressive way of negating millions of lives - either through economic genocide or some other form of pressure. I just find that psychiatry and other tools like that are being used with specific intentions and you don't have to be a paranoid 'nut' to see these things. They are cropping up everywhere. I think with the net - there is a lot of panic among the right wing because too much information is escaping and therefore you are getting a speed-up in a lot of areas because they are wanting to overtake things before those things overtake them. I just would say, get more information out - because that's the only way. Right now, they are like coming in with the draggers, in terms of small fishing boats which used to be able to keep the public in a state of ignorance and ioppress them. Now they are starting to get out the huge draggers so that people are not going to be informed. Alternative radio stations and people who have the information - in terms of your show - have got to keep getting the information out because they are running scared with the worldwide net because more and more information is escaping, thank God. That's all I have to say. WAYNE MORRIS: Thank you for your comments. I think you have raised some interesting points about the political coercion that goes on, for example the second attack on Iraq. I think that coercion happens at a lot of different levels. It seems like they are not as concerned as in the past of coercing the public's opinion - particularly in Ontario - they just ignore the public's opinion. The coercion seems to be happening at the higher political levels in terms of their desire to implement whatever the issue is. One thing that has been raised in this series is the use of mind control for political coercion and I think that is an area that really needs to be investigated. What kind of government, democracy, are we living in when all of our politicians and officials have the ability to be manipulated in this way, being blackmailed by using these mind control victims from whom we have heard allegations? DON WEITZ (caller): Someone made a statement about shock which is wrong - that some people stop being suicidal after ECT. I have reviewed a great deal of the literature and Dr. Peter Breggin has a book, "Brain Disabling TTreatments in Psychiatry". There is not one shred of evidence that ECT has prevented or can prevent anyone from commiting suicide. It always damages the brain, it disables the mind and it should be abolished. Dr. Breggin is one of the very few doctors in the Western world who has called for the abolition of ECT. It always disables the brain - there is nothing good to be said about this treatment. It's a lie when they say they don't know how it works - they know very well how it works - it always to disable the brain. The inventor of electric shock, Ugo Cerletti an Italian who invented ECT after seeing how electricity stunned pigs on the way to the slaughterhouse - he decided to use it on "unwilling" schizophrenic patients. It subdues the patient. When you think that the brain only needs 1/1000 of a millivolt to survive or to live - they are dumping now as much as 175-200 volts of electricity into the human brain. That's a hell of a lot more than what comes out of your electrical socket at home. So, no. One doesn't need a doctor to know that this is really an abomination, and it's a crime against humanity, and it should be stopped. I have been trying to say that on CKLN more than once. What is particularly upsetting now is that the escalating use of ECT in North America is targeting elderly women, and I have statistics that show that 70% of the women who get electric shock are over 65 in Ontario. The same thing is happening in the US and no one is speaking out. ECT has always been a mind control weapon, but what a lot of people have to realize is that it subdues, pacifies in a brutal way. People come out with huge chunks of memory loss. To this day, the Canadian Psychiatric Association as you know, has never apologize to the victims of Cameron's brainwashing experiments. The CPA has never done that - in fact they obstructed the miniscule amount of awards that were given to the survivors of Cameron. The CPA have consistently lied to the public and the victims by saying that your memory will be as good as ever. People permanently lose huge chunks of memory - Wendy Funk in Vancouver is still trying to get her case in court. She has lost 30 years of her life after undergoing 40+ electric shocks in Alberta in the 80's. She has no memory of growing up. Please. Do not say electric shock can prevent suicide. Absolutely not. WAYNE MORRIS: It seems to me that these methods of psychiatric treatment such as electro shock and the harmful drugs, seem to be a bandaid, quick-fix solution where really the more traditional psychotherapy in terms of talking with the people who are needing help, talking through their problems, creating more opportunities in their lives. I think a lot of so-called mental illnesses actually have roots in social problems to a great degree. DON GILLMOR: Electric shock is a very crude instrument and anyone can use it. The drugs are much more sophisticated and the people who prescribe them don't really understand them that well. Whereas forty years ago it was the clinicians who were experimenting with them. They were experimenting on the people they were treating and they had a firsthand account of what was happening to those people. The drugs have become so sophisticated they are essentially a separate science. You have the neurosciences over here, and psychiatrists somewhere else. In fact there is almost no common language now. Drugs are coming out on a monthly basis and to keep up with the literature is simply impossible. Doctors are taking short-cuts, they are not understanding the side effects, over-prescribing. <= we're not machines you know => +++ we're not going to fall over in rows +++ Dr. King - On The Beach - 1959 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aches-mc.org ************************************************************** MINDCONTROL-L Mind Control and Psyops Mailing List To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text: "unsubscribe MINDCONTROL-L" or "subscribe MINDCONTROL-L". Post to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wes Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, list moderator
