-Caveat Lector-
from alt.mindcontrol
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As always, Caveat Lector.
Om
K
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<A HREF="aol://5863:126/alt.mindcontrol:39510">Re: Michael Aquino & Ritual
Child Molestion</A>
-----
Subject: Re: Michael Aquino & Ritual Child Molestion
From: John M Price PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, Mar 4, 1999 4:43 PM
Message-id: <36e009bd.0@calwebnnrp>
This is real mindcontrol. These interviewers were set on getting the kids
to state and believe what the kids knew was not true, and the interviewers
did not know anything at all about. Or what the interviewer wanted to
hear, as the interviewer believed it true, though it was only belief.
This is the real mind control, and when these 'reports' come out, what we
the public, unaware of the methods of mind control used on the
'interviewed', see is simply the reflection of the diseased mind of the
interviewer, in the MVMP sex cases one obsessed with having little kids
talk dirty it seems. No data, no truth, no facts. Simply an amalgam of
the imaginings of the interviewer as interpreted by the child.
Why Dan Rightmeyer, in his pen name of Constantine, would be siding with
the likes of these interviewers, and yet rail against an imagined mind
control establishment using ELF is really beyond me. The harm done by
these types of interviews is immense, hence the Miranda warnings!
Perhaps Dan Rightmeyer is simply a hypocrite, and is unconcerned with
truth, kids, or anything else, but rather wants to try to make bucks.
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
<7bn5v0$2je$[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Nancy Stone
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Excerpts from the questioning of children in the McMartin Preschool
: child molestation case and Kelly Michaels case [as quoted by Margaret
: Talbot in The New Republic, March 15, 1999]:
: Interviewer: Who do you think played that game [horsey]?
: Child: Ray and Miss Peggy
: Interviewer: Ray and Miss Peggy? Did Miss Peggy take her clothes
: off?
: Child: Yeah
: Interviewer: I'll bet she looked funny, didn't she? Did she have big
: boobs?
: Child: Yeah
: Interviewer: Yeah. And did they swing around?
: Child: Yeah
: ......
: Interviewer: Did she put a fork in your butt? Yes or no?
: Child: I don't know, I forgot.
: Interviewer: ...Oh come on, if you just answer that one, you can go.
: Child: I hate you.
: Interviewer: No you don't.
: Child: Yes I do.
: Interviewer: You love me I can tell. Is that all she did to you,
: what did she do to your hiney?
: Interviewer #2: What did she do to your hiney? Then you can go.
: Child: I forgot.
: Interviewer #2: Tell me what Kelly did to your hiney and then you can
: go. If you tell me what she did to your hiney, we'll let you go.
: Child: No.
: Interviewer: Please.
: Child: Okay, okay, okay.
: Interviewer: Tell me now...what did Kelly do to your hiney?
: Child: I'll try to remember.
: Interviewer: What did she put in your hiney?
: Child: The fork.
: ........
: Interviewer: Do you think that Kelly was not good when she was
: hurting you all?
: Child: Wasn't hurting me. I like her.
: Interviewer: I can't hear you, you got to look at me when you talk to
: me. Now when Kelly was bothering kids in the music room...
: Child: I got socks off.
: Interviewer: Did she make anybody else take their clothes off in the
: music room?
: Child: No.
: Interviewer: Yes.
: Child: No.
: Testimony of children needs to be evaluated in the context of how that
: testimony was obtained, how the children were questioned, and what
: else they may have said (such as persistent denials that were ignored
: or overridden). The eagerness to obtain corroboration for something
: an adult believes occurred cannot justify browbeating, bribing,
: putting words into children's mouths, and otherwise coercing them into
: making statements needed to prosecute someone, guilty or innocent.
: Videotapes of interviews with children have provided the grounds for
: overturning convictions in several cases. If you believe that the
: people set free were actually guilty, all the more reason to treat
: children carefully when interviewing them so that their evidence is
: not tainted. From the excerpts below, one cannot tell whether the
: children said these things upon first questioning or whether they are
: well-rehearsed statements that children were taught to give after
: repeated interviewing using the tactics described above. If one
: believes that children can be intimidated by molesters into
: withholding truth and must therefore be exhaustively interrogated
: using techniques like those illustrated above, one must also believe
: that they can be intimidated into saying things that are not true,
: especially to please parents or placate annoying adults (especially
: when they are ganging up on a child of four years in age, as
: Interviewers 1 and 2 did above).
: Nancy
: Alex Constantine wrote in message ...
:>Michael Aquino/Child Molestion Charges
:>
:>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:>>Newsgroups: alt.true-crime
:>>Organization: Victim's Rights, Inc.
:>
:>>(These are some of the children in N. Calif that the CID interviewed
: and
:>why in part, they titled Michael Aquino from the Temple of Set. I had
: the
:>opportunity to view some of these tapes of the interviews by the CID
: and
:>indeed they named Michael Aquino as being present. I have come
: *nowhere
:>near* to describing the extent and horrific allegations the children
: made
:>and exactly what they were exposed to. They said they were bled, tied
: in
:>the center of pentagrams (stars) etc...)
:>
:>>Hans (the Aquino spokesperson) wrote this about two months ago in
: alt.satanism:
:>
:>>h>And as noted previously both Ball and Thrail continued to
: h>maintain
:>their complete innocence but said they agreed to a plea h> bargain
: because
:>what else could they do in a witch hunt like that. h>That too
: happened
:>over and over again in the h>epidemic of cases like this in the
: 1980s.
:>
:>>...(opening DA Statement) "Defendant Daryl Ball, Sr. and
: co-defendant
:>Charlotte Thrailkill have been charged by way of felony information
: with
:>34 counts of child sexual abuse. A preliminary hearing began in
: August
:>1987, and lasted almost a month. Daryl Ball had an earlier case,
: 14668-c
:>which was consolidated into the later charges. This case is described
: as a
:>multivictim/multiperpetrator sexual abuse case. Such cases have often
:>involved the active participation of women, multiple victims young in
: age,
:>sexual penetration, and allegations of ritual abuse. These cases are
:>distinguished from the incest model by the extreme terror shown by
: the
:>victims. See Sexual Abuse in Day Care: A National Study, Final Report
:>March 1988, David Finkelhor, Ph. D...."
:>
:>>(Statements evidencing the number of Victims):
:>
:>>From opening Statements: "Child witnesses Kid #1 and kid #2, Kid#3,
: Kid
:>#4 , Kid #5, Kid #6 and Kid#7 were brought forward to testify as well
: as
:>parents of some of the children and police agencies that were
: instrumental
:>in the investigation. Their testimony has painted a graphic scenario
: of
:>child sexual assault."
:>
:>>"...On August 18th, child #1 returned to testify. He affirmed his
:>estimate that Thailkill copulated him 50 times (16:8-10). He
: testified to
:>having nightmares about dragons and people killing other people
:>(74:9-24)."
:>
:>>.."kid #1 witnessed Thrailkill copulating kid #2, kids #3, kids #4,
: kids
:>#5. Kid #1 described being tied up and hung by the feet (123:1-28)
: and
:>stated (named five other kids) were also tied up. He described Ball
:>copulating Kid #2 and Ball inserting a dildo into her (126: 20-28)
:>Thailkill also used the spike dildo in Kid #2's rectum
:>>and copulated her daughter and kid #3. Kid #1 was also abused on a
: night
:>when defendants had taken him trick or treating (132, 133, 134)."
:>
:>>..(Testimony of one of the childen)
:>
:>>Q. Did he say what would happen if you told your mom? A. Yeah
:>>Q. What did he say would happen if you told your mom about
:>>Tina's hickey?
:>>A. He'll kill her and cut her heart out. Q. He'd kill her and cut
: her
:>heart out?
:>>A. And make me eat it.
:>>Q. And make you eat it?
:>>A. Yeah.
:>>Q Did he say anything about your little brother? A. Yeah
:>>..."(kids name) explained how he saw hypodermic needles at
: defendant's
:>house and stated Thrailkill had injected him with the needle in the
: arm
:>and some blood came out. Defendant Ball was present as well..".
:>
:>>"..(kid #1) described a game called "neener, neener, neener, you
: can't
:>catch my weiner' which was played with defendant Ball while he was
: nude.
:>(156:23-28). The person who won the game was shot by a squirt gun
: filled
:>with urine.(157:17-27). He described how Tony Carpino had threatened
: to
:>"chop his throat off".(158:6-20) He also described being in a small
:>swiming pool with other kids, all nude who were threatened to not
: tell
:>their parents. (161:1-28, 162:1-9)"
:>
:>>"...he told of Thrailkill putting a "rocket ship" in his bottom
:>(170:10-24) He returned to testify Sept. 1, 1987, and described the
:>defendants fighting over who would get to put the dildo in the
: children
:>(RT (/1) 17: 80 28, 18: 1-10)"
:>
:>>"....(kid #2) also testified on Sept. 1, 1987. He testified that
: Ball
:>touched his front private and it hurt (80:7-28) and Ball threatened
: to
:>kill his mother (82:8-20). Ball also threatened him with a knife
:>(84:21-28) and cut him with it."
:>
:>>"... He went on to relate incidents where the children were tied up
: with
:>rope (117; 18-28, 118:1-28. 119: 1-18) He was made to touch his front
:>private to child #3 privates by defendants (120:17-25) He described
: being
:>tied up and hung by the feet (123:1-28) and stated that (kid#1),
: (kid#3),
:>(kid#4), (kid#5), and (kid#6) were tied up. He described Ball
: copulating
:>Kid #4 (126:14-19) and Ball inserting a dildo into her (126;20-28),
: 127:
:>1-11). Thrailkill also used the spike dildo in (kid#1) rectum, and
:>copulated her daughter and (kid#3)."
:>
:>>"..He also told of Thrailkill giving him a bath, holding him
: underwater
:>for long periods of time and then copulating him (139;20-28),
: (140:1-19)"
:>". .. Ball threatened to cut (kid) mother's heart out if he told
: anyone
:>and he would make him eat it. (145:8-10) He also told of Thrailkill
:>holding his head under water in a swimminig pool, and then
: threatening to
:>kill his mom if he told (147:12-28:148:1-15) He further described
: seeing
:>Ball use a variety of dildoes on the other children (192-196) He
: identifed
:>the rope he had been tied up with as being yellow rope (R.T. (9/3
:>104:12-28)"
:>
:>>"Thrailkill also forced him to undergo a a forcible bath where he
: said
:>
:>>that the pounding of the water would give him such a headache, and
: that
:>then she orally copulated him as he's kicking her to get her away".
:>
:>>"...(kid#1) talked about "super duper day" when he, his brother,
: (named 6
:>kids) went to the office of the apartment manager. There, all the
: kids
:>were undressed and touched by defendants, Steve Ruggles, Tory, Terry,
:>Robin and Pappy. (kid#1) saw the other children sodomized with
: dildoes,
:>and were tied up (pgs. 96-105), 155-169)
:>
:>>"..(another kid). She saw Ball copulate, and use his finger and the
: red
:>dildo on (kid#2) (198:4-25)...she described being injected with a
: needle
:>behind her knee and at the inner aspect of her arm.. She was violated
: with
:>the red dildo three times and the blue dildo twice "...She also
: related
:>testimony about "super, duper child molest day"
:>>which took place in the apartment manager's office. She identified
: many
:>adults who were present and described a banner that read "Super Duper
:>Child Molesting Day". She explained how a video was made of the
: sexual
:>activity, and the kids watched it afterwards" (62:10-27;pgs 101-115)
:>
:>>"She also told of being in the swimming pool with other children,
: all
:>nude, while the adults took photographs (25:1-25). She told about the
:>tattoo's she had seen on Thrailkill (44" 13-28). She told of a
: Halloween
:>trip where kid #3 and #4 were left at a house, and picked up later
:>(52:7-28; 53:1-28; 54:1-28;). There, she was present when they were
: told
:>to strip, and the kids later shared their candy so it would appear
: that
:>(another kid) had been trick or treating also
:>
:>>Kid #1 said he had been sodomized and copulated more than ten times
: each
:>(137: 21-26), and described Kid #3 crying when defendant Ball had
:>attempted intercourse with her (138: 4-16). Kid #1 saw Mike Dugan
: touch
:>Kid #2's butt (138:24-26). He also told of Thrailkill giving him a
: bath,
:>holding him underwater for long peirods of time and then copulating
: him
:>(139:20-28). He saw Kid #3 get kicked and punched around, saw Ball
:>copulate Kid #3 and Thrailkill use the spiked dildoe on kid #3
: (43:1-28).
:>Ball threatened to cut kid #1's mother's heart out if he told about
: Kid
:>#2's hickey (145: 1-6), and he would make Kid #1 eat it.
:>
:>>prosecutor: Did your real dad, Daryl, ever squeeze your dookie-doo
: real hard?
:>>(perps kid): yes
:>>Pros: and did it hurt?
:>>kid: yes
:>>Pros: what would he say when you would say it hurt? kid: He
: said..next
:>time you lay in bed and not, lay still. You go to sleep.
:>
:>>"This is by no means a complete analysis of all the testimony, but
: should
:>give the Court a sufficient overview of the matter to grasp the
: horror of
:>the allegations. Unfortunately, no amount of these excerpts will ever
: show
:>this court the terror, guilt and anxiety that these young victims
: suffered
:>at the time of the acts or during their testimony."
:>
:>>.."Under 421(a) (6), the Defendant threatened witnesses or prevented
: them
:>from testifying. These children were told not to tell their parents".
: "The
:>crime involved multiple victims. Many of the times when these acts
:>occured, the children described other children being there and other
:>children being subjected to things at the same time."
:>
:>>".. When Counsel, Ms. Dubois, was describing the "orgy Weekend"
: Dildo, if
:>the court was noticing, right behind her, her client was laughing,
: they
:>were laughing.."
:>
:>>The Case was in *Sonoma, Ca,* People v. Ball
:>>Court No. 14750-C. Call the
:>>Santa Rosa court house 707-527-1100
:>
:>>(newspaper article) *The Press Democrat* Wed. Sept. 21, 1988
:>
:>>" Child sexual abuse case ends with prison terms
:>
:>>A case that at one time involved more than 50 counts of child sexual
:>abuse reached a conclusion of sorts Monday when a Santa Rosa Couple
: was
:>sentenced to prison for assaults on six children in a Santa Rosa
:>neighborhood. But while the legal wrangling in the case ended after
: 18
:>months, the impact on the victims may never end, one court official
: said.
:>In an arrangement designed to spare the children the ordeal of
: testifying,
:>Daryl T. Ball and Charlotte Thrailkill pleaded no contest to a total
: of
:>nine counts involving lewd and lascivious conduct with the young
: victims.
:>The majority of the allegations against Ball and Thrailkill,
: involving at
:>one time up to 52 counts of sexual molestation involving children
: ages 5
:>through 8, were to be dismissed as part of the plea bargaining.
:>
:>>Ball pleaded no contest to two counts of forcible lewd and
: lascivious
:>conduct and two counts of lewd and lascivious conduct upon children
:>without the use of force. Judge Raymond Giordano sentenced him to 24
: years
:>in prison. Thrailkill, who married Ball while both were in jail five
: days
:>before pleading no contest to one count of forcible lewd and
: lascivious
:>conduct with a child and four counts of the same conduct without
: force,
:>was given a 14 year prison term.
:>>(cut)
:>>...Officials who interviewed and examined the children said there
: was no
:>question they had been the victims of repeated and severe sexual
: assault.
:>Deputy Probation Officer James Penn, who did pre-sentencing
: evaluations of
:>both Ball and Thrailkill for the court, said the children have become
:>involved in psychological treatment, but the damage may be
: irreparable"
:>
:>>(These children were witness/victims involved in the *successful
:>prosecution* of Daryl Ball and Charlotte Thrailkill.
:>>If you go to some of the RA Web sites that list convictions, you
: will see
:>this case, but you won't find it in any of the debunker books, even
: dear
:>Debbie Nathan "missed" it. Aquino was named by some of these children
: as
:>being at some of the "gatherings" in the "devil worship club" and
:>molesting them- not in court but on the CID tapes).
:>
:>
:>>***************
--
John M. Price, PhD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Nothing illustrates the social kinship of America and the late, great
Roman Empire better than the all-you-can-eat buffet. The Romans called
their buffet an orgy and threw in sex and a vomit trough. Hopefully we too
will reach this pinnacle someday.
- Greg Beets & Buzz Moran 'Hey! Hey! Buffet!'
=====
Subject: Re: Michael Aquino & Ritual Child Molestion
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, Mar 7, 1999 2:28 PM
Message-id: <7buuio$lcc$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In article <36e009bd.0@calwebnnrp>,
John M Price PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This is real mindcontrol. These interviewers were set on getting
>the kids to state and believe what the kids knew was not true, and
>the interviewers did not know anything at all about. Or what the
>interviewer wanted to hear, as the interviewer believed it true,
>though it was only belief.
(cut) of snippets of a few McMartin interviews;
Actually no, John. There were several children and parents after
the trial who continued to insist that their children were molested
and several parents were threatened with lawsuits if they didn't keep
quiet. The tunnels under the school were also found.
What the defense did from the start was to say the interviewer
made the children make the claims. The interviewer in this case
made it easy for the defense to claim that because the standards for
interviews at that time were fairly lax. But what is not understood
is that before this interview the children are usually disclosing
to multiple sources and the interviewer knows much of the information
that has been previously disclosed. Because the taped interview
is so important, interviewers have been known to go overboard into
suggestive, leading questions in order to "prompt." That doesn't
mean children weren't abused at Mcmartin and because you posted this
nonsense editorial in the Aquino evidence thread, it doesn't mean your
friend, Mr. Mikey, was the victim of children who were "suggestively
interviewed."
What it means is that young children don't do well with "open"
questions like: "Is there anything that bothered you last year."
Some of the Mcmartin interviews were clearly leading but what you
are also posting are snippets and you can tell nothing about the
context of an interview by taking the entire interview out of context.
Here's just one of the many articles about the spin the defense
tried to put on this case. It's the same spin the defense tries
to put on all satanic ritual abuse cases.
Karen Jones
http://members.tripod.com/~Curio_5_/index.html
Satanic ritual abuse cases, McMartin
_________________
NewsBank InfoWeb
The San Diego Union-Tribune
May 14, 1995
Column: McMartin, DRAMA RESURRECTS TRIAL'S PAIN, ANGER
Producers clash with parents in making of film
ByIRV LETOFSKY; IRV LETOFSKY, a Hollywood reporter and critic, is a
regular contributor to the Union-Tribune. The Associated Press
contributed to this article.
HOLLYWOOD - HOLLYWOOD -- It was a landmark child molestation case: the
longest and most expensive trial in history, gripping L.A. and the
country for seven years.
"McMartin," the word, became a lightning rod as parents and day-care
centers panicked.
On Saturday, HBO premieres "Indictment: The McMartin Trial," and it,
too, is a subject of intense controversy.
For the former defendants, the film is a kind of national vindication;
for still-angry parents, it rakes open old wounds. "Indictment" is
sympathetic to those who were on trial, particularly Raymond Buckey
(played in the film by Henry Thomas, a long way from "E.T."), his
mother Peggy (Shirley Knight) and grandmother Virginia McMartin (Sada
Thompson) -- central figures in the trial that rocked the nation
beginning in 1983.
The focus is not on children as victims, or even children as alleged
victims, but on the frenzy set off by the media and the politicians
aimed at the extended family that ran the Manhattan Beach child-care
facility.
Filmmaker Abby Mann feels strongly about the movie's point of view:
"Here this thing was building up, building up, the children giving
these incredible stories, and nobody had the guts to say, `Hey wait a
minute! Maybe this isn't so.' "
Meanwhile, there are still the entrenched emotions of some McMartin
parents such as Marymae Cioffi. Her daughter, Elizabeth, now 15,
attended school there at the time.
Elizabeth says she still has recollections of "The Naked Movie Star
Game" and "The Horsey Game." "My most vivid memories," she says, "was
screaming and clinging to my mom's leg every day and shouting, `Mommy,
Mommy, I don't want to go, I don't want to go!' " Several weeks ago
Elizabeth learned that HBO was filming a movie about the McMartin child
sex case and the fury that ensued. She also heard that the movie makes
the case that there was no sexual abuse, no naked games, no nothing: It
was all hysteria.
"If they (the movie producers) are so sure it (abuse) didn't happen,"
says Elizabeth, "then why don't they come and take these memories out
of my head -- because I would be glad not to have to think about this
anymore and not to have to wish it didn't happen."
On the other hand, there's the view of actor James Woods, who portrays
Danny Davis, defense attorney: "I really see it as a witch hunt of
mammoth proportions. You get this kind of witch's brew of paranoia and
innuendo and all the usual elements of a witch hunt -- and everybody's
off to the races. Nobody looked at the facts except, thank God, the
juries."
`Ray Must Die'
The McMartin Preschool case was a landmark in a sort of civic anarchy.
Rumors were everywhere. Two fires were set at the now long-gone
McMartin school. Much of the hate focused on Raymond Buckey, a onetime
student at San Diego State, as the main offender. In the middle of the
night, someone spray-painted a school shutter with the words, "Ray Must
Die."
In court the children related all manner of horrors, truth or fiction:
being forced to drink blood in satanic rites, being raped and
sodomized. Several parents refused to let their children testify or
pulled them out of the trial when cross-examinations seemed long and
scary.
The preliminary hearing lasted 18 months. The long and winding trial of
Ray Buckey and his mother, Peggy, (charges against five others were
dropped) on 65 horrible counts went 395 days, with 121 witnesses
filling 63,522 pages of transcript -- in 454 volumes measuring 16 feet
high.
Following the acquittals, Ray was tried again on 13 counts, and that
jury was hung.
After all the hullabaloo, nobody was convicted.
At the time, Gerald Uelman, dean of the school of law at Santa Clara
University and a former federal prosecutor who is now on the O.J.
Simpson defense team, said, "This is the worst example I have ever seen
of a case being overcharged and overtried."
The forces behind the film are Myra Mann, who says she attended every
day of the legal wrangles, and her husband, Abby Mann, whose credits
include "Judgment at Nuremberg" (1961, an Oscar for his screenplay),
"The Marcus-Nelson Murders" (pilot film for the "Kojak" series), "The
Atlanta Child Murders" and "Teamster Boss: The Jackie Presser Story."
The Manns receive the movie's screenplay credit though a final version
was done by Alice Arlen, who co-wrote "Silkwood" with Nora Ephron.
It was Abby Mann who asked writer-producer Oliver Stone ("Platoon,"
"JFK," the just-shooting "Nixon") to join him on the project, bringing
together two of what might be considered Hollywood's loudest, most
righteous filmmakers.
British director Mick Jackson ("The Bodyguard") had an imposing cast
that also included Mercedes Ruehl as fervent prosecutor Lael Rubin, and
Lolita Davidovich as controversial child-therapist Kee MacFarlane (who
now lives in Escondido with her husband, Harry Elias, a municipal judge
in San Diego County).
The movie takes a hard look at MacFarlane's techniques of interviewing
and videotaping troops of children. She was accused by the defense of
brainwashing them into believing they'd been abused. (MacFarlane did
not return a reporter's phone call.)
For still-angry parents, the Manns are at the heart of darkness. They
sided early on with the defense, obtaining TV rights from the seven
defendants. Newspapers reported that the Manns were hired by the
defense as investigators (the Manns deny that). The Manns put up their
house for collateral to help guarantee the $3 million bail for Ray
Buckey, who had at that point already spent five years in jail. The TV
talk shows lined up loudly against the defense, but when "60 Minutes"
did a pro-defens e piece featuring star inquisitor Mike Wallace, the
interview with the defendants took place in the Mann home.
Bob Cooper, the HBO executive who brought to the pay network such
celebrated projects as "And the Band Played On" and "Barbarians at the
Gate," was asked if the Manns' obvious bias was a problem of
journalistic conflict of interest.
"It's of no importance to me," he says. "Projects that come to us are
never truly objective. There's always advocacy."
Cooper says he wanted a film with a strong point of view but it was
important that the script -- no matter the attitude of "the passionate
writer" -- had the balance, and the Manns' script had it. Three days
into filming last December at the Dos Carlos Stages near downtown Los
Angeles, the Manns were summoned from the set and told their house in
Hollywood Hills overlooking Sunset Boulevard was afire. Arson was
ruled.
"I have a lot of feelings about it, believe me," Abby Mann says, "but I
just can't talk about it."
Oliver Stone sent the Manns a holiday card in which he wrote, "Perhaps
you have paid the high price of your belief" -- a likely reference to a
thinly veiled suspicion that an angry McMartin parent set the fire.
(Stone wasn't available to comment for this article, his publicist
said.)
L.A. Fire Department arson investigator Jim Thornton, who estimated the
fire loss was "over $500,000," says that the case is near solution but
"if you were to say that a McMartin parent was a suspect, you would be
wrong."
Pro-child activists
The Manns insist their movie is accurate. Myra Mann asserts that when
they turned in the script, they had annotated every line: "Six books,
three-ring binders," she says. "Every line had a reference point to the
truth."
Some McMartin parents and other pro-child activists form a loose
network that in recent weeks circulated as many as three different
drafts of the "Indictment" script. And they say they see
"distortions" in what they're reading.
Among the most contentious points made by parents in interviews was a
single dismissive line of dialogue about a lack of credible physical
evidence of abuse. Myra Mann counters that she would have wanted more
on medical evidence in the film but, anyway, such evidence that was
presented by the prosecution was effectively neutralized by the
defense's expert witness.
Not so, says William Pounders, the Superior Court judge on the marathon
case: "As I recall, the experts on both sides agreed to the manner in
which two of the children claimed that they had been molested ... that
the traumas had occurred the way the children said it had. So it isn't
true that the physical evidence was totally disputed."
Adds Pounders, "It (the script) fails to present a balanced view of
what happened ... and the portions (of the trial) that are chosen
present a particular point of view that not necessarily everyone will
share.
"Beyond that I think it's unfortunate that it's being done, because it
opens old wounds. The children and the parents have gone through this,
and regardless of where the truth lies, it was time to allow the wounds
to heal and now this is going to reopen them." Meanwhile, the so-called
Children's Civil Rights Fund, a small group of former McMartin parents,
is sending out thousands of fliers beseeching people to drop their HBO
subscriptions. Attached are protest postcards addressed to Richard
Parsons, president of Time Warner Inc., which owns HBO.
The group also has faxed four-page letters to the national TV press
corp to "raise their consciousness" about "this shameless fiction" and
was contacting some critics by phone.
Believe the Children, a Chicago-based newsletter launched in 1986, had
harsh criticism in its spring issue lead article ("Sex Abuse, Lies and
Videotape") for Stone (his "penchant for rewriting history") and Abby
Mann ("abuse of the television docudrama").
Both groups have received letters from Mann's lawyer alleging libel.
Beth Vargo, executive director of Believe the Children, acknowledges
errors and says some statements will be retracted for her 500
subscribers.
The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children, a
5,000-member professional education and training organization also
based in Chicago, sent a release to 800 media critics claiming the
movie is "sensationalistic journalism" and "dangerous." The group's
executive director, Theresa Reid, says she also has read a draft of the
script.
Abby Mann professes sympathy for the McMartin parents -- at least for
some of them: "I have only the greatest compassion for those parents
who honestly think something happened to their child. But there is a
fringe group that's very frightening."
Now the Manns are moving on, he says: "Myra is working on an intriguing
love story. And I have another project with HBO which is even more
dangerous than this one, which shows how foolhardy I am."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
=====
Subject: Re: Michael Aquino & Ritual Child Molestion
From: John M Price PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, Mar 7, 1999 12:42 AM
Message-id: <36e31cff.0@calwebnnrp>
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kook of the Month,
Victor von Frankenstein Weird Science Award wrote:
: In article <36e009bd.0@calwebnnrp>,
: John M Price PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>This is real mindcontrol. These interviewers were set on getting
:>the kids to state and believe what the kids knew was not true, and
:>the interviewers did not know anything at all about. Or what the
:>interviewer wanted to hear, as the interviewer believed it true,
:>though it was only belief.
: (cut) of snippets of a few McMartin interviews;
: Actually no, John. There were several children and parents after
: the trial who continued to insist that their children were molested
: and several parents were threatened with lawsuits if they didn't keep
: quiet. The tunnels under the school were also found.
No tunnels.
See the GIFs of the documnents at:
ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/sra/
The DA and the scientific folk they brought in found no tunnels. None
next door where the kids had said either, nor did the forensic geologist
brought in by the second 'scientific' investigation of the site.
Personally, I'd believe a geologist rather than an archaeologist on this
matter.
--
John M. Price, PhD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=====
ubject: Re: Michael Aquino & Ritual Child Molestion
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brian)
Date: Sun, Mar 7, 1999 5:44 PM
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Sun, 07 Mar 1999 22:28:49 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>In article <36e009bd.0@calwebnnrp>,
> John M Price PhD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> This is real mindcontrol. These interviewers were set on
>> getting the kids to state and believe what the kids knew
>> was not true, and the interviewers did not know anything
>> at all about. Or what the interviewer wanted to hear, as
>> the interviewer believed it true, though it was only belief.
>
>(cut) of snippets of a few McMartin interviews;
>
>Actually no, John. There were several children and parents after
>the trial who continued to insist that their children were molested
>and several parents were threatened with lawsuits if they didn't keep
>quiet. The tunnels under the school were also found.
>
>What the defense did from the start was to say the interviewer
>made the children make the claims. The interviewer in this case
>made it easy for the defense to claim that because the standards for
>interviews at that time were fairly lax. But what is not understood
>is that before this interview the children are usually disclosing
>to multiple sources and the interviewer knows much of the information
>that has been previously disclosed. Because the taped interview
>is so important, interviewers have been known to go overboard into
>suggestive, leading questions in order to "prompt." That doesn't
>mean children weren't abused at Mcmartin and because you posted this
>nonsense editorial in the Aquino evidence thread, it doesn't mean your
>friend, Mr. Mikey, was the victim of children who were "suggestively
>interviewed."
>
>What it means is that young children don't do well with "open"
>questions like: "Is there anything that bothered you last year."
I wonder about what you mean by "do well"?
The problem is the interviewers who will settle for nothing less than
the children telling them what they (the interviewers) want to hear.
>Some of the Mcmartin interviews were clearly leading but what you
>are also posting are snippets and you can tell nothing about the
>context of an interview by taking the entire interview out of context.
>Here's just one of the many articles about the spin the defense
>tried to put on this case. It's the same spin the defense tries
>to put on all satanic ritual abuse cases.
Tell that to "Michael" released from prison in New Zealand at the end
of 1997. (His real name is not able to be released to protect his
children)
Tell that to his children, who reported that the interviewer "nagged
them" to tell her that their father had molested them.
Tell that to his children, who twice told the interviewer that their
father was innocent, but they were not listened to.
Tell that to his children who lost their father for several years,
during the time of the investigation, and while he was in prison.
Tell that to his children, who now have to live with guilt for their
role in helping to convict their father.
Tell that to his children, who were not permitted to name the *real*
molester.
Tell that to his children, who were condemned by that interviewer to
be continued to be molested for the next couple of years, while their
loving father was being treated as a "baby fucker" in prison.
Tell that to the other children who were also being abused by this
pedophile. The opportunity was there to "save" these children too,
but nobody cared.
All they wanted was to convict "Michael"
Oh, sure. His children "did well".
Those interviewers don't give a damn about pedophilia and child sexual
abuse.
What they are really interested in is the power to play amateur
detective, without the responsibilities...
What they are really interested in is wanting to verify their beliefs,
and convict the demons that are _flying around in their own heads_
Satanic? There is plenty of evidence of evil .... MacFarlane and co
at the McMartin Preschool, and in New Zealand the equivalents in the
Christchurch Creche case were Karen Zelas ... Sue Sidey ... Rosemary
Smart ... Cathy Crawford ... Linda Morgan (now changed her name to
Morgan Libeau) ... and a ritual abuse "expert" Pamela Hudson, imported
from the USA.
Peter Ellis is still in prison as a result of the Christchurch Creche
fiasco, where the social worker investigators carried out a copycat
crime of the crime of the investigators in the McMartin case.
Peter Ellis is due for a parole hearing this week. Last year, in
March, he refused parole, not wishing to make any statement that would
indicate guilt. The Governor General is expected to announce within
the next two months whether Peter will receive a free pardon or not.
If he is not given a pardon, Peter has already won the right to an
unprecedented second appeal hearing that is scheduled to commence May
31.
To those men I have named in this post, I would say:
* I rejoice for you "Michael" in re-establishing a
meaningful relationship with your children.
* You are not forgotten, Peter Ellis.
Brian
Three things endure: faith, hope, and love
----
Aloha, He'Ping,
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Em Hotep, Peace Be,
Omnia Bona Bonis,
All My Relations.
Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
Amen.
Roads End
Kris
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