-Caveat Lector-
See my comments interspersed below.
In a message dated 12/17/99 6:17:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >Oh I understand their role to be sure. You failed to notice that I said in
> >my comments that they should perhaps concentrate on their real role of
> actual
> >intelligence gathering for REAL national security issues.
>
> Can you actually prove that the NSA isn't concentrating on foreign
> intelligence gathering? Or at least provide some reasoning to suggest that
> maybe it isn't?
Nope, can't prove a thing it is full of too much ambiguity and secrecy. NOW,
can you prove that they are doing the job that you would have us believe they
are doing, besides saying it is the law since they violated it before?
> >HOWEVER, that being said, perhaps I DO believe more of the "conspiracy"
> oriented >views of the NSA rather than the official explanations of its
> activities as given by
> >themselves. I don't trust any agency that is so shrouded in secrecy AND
> has
> >a history of violating their charter by spying on Americans.
>
> Like all SIGINT organisations the NSA shrouds itself in secrecy so those
who
> it is eavesdropping on never find out because if they do discover their
> communications are no longer private then they will change things making
the
> NSA's work that much harder. If you read the books about breaking the
Enigma
> code you will see that the British had to go great lengths to ensure that
> the
> Nazis never found out that their codes had been broken. If the Nazis had
> found out they would have changed the codes again and becomemore security
> conscious probably extending the war as a consequence.
Of course secrecy would be necessary in the terms you identify. I aver that
secrecy is not necessary where there is no legitimate oversight to insure
that what is being said is actually what is happening.
> Your mistrust of secrecy verges on the superstitious. The "if it must be
> secret it must be truly shocking & immoral" line of thought leads people
> into
> the dark worlds of Bill Cooper & David Icke. Did it occur to you that most
> secrets are actually more likely to be terribly mundane?
It sure does. I'm often disappointed when I hear a secret that has been kept
from me for some time, BUT there are always doozies too. By the same token
your trust of the government and everything they hand down is verging on the
ridiculous especially in light of past abuses that you acknowledge
> >The recent talk
> >of collaberation with the FBI on tracking so-called "terrorism" in the US
> is
> >another example.
> >I think a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted. By the way do you
> believe
> >all the pronouncements from Big Brother as to the necessity and value of
> all
> >their "agencies" and plans?
>
> No the point is that the assertion that the NSA is involved in Big Brother
> like activities is based more on speculation about the alleged capabilities
> of Echelon (mentioned by yourself) to intercept everyone's communications
> than any hard evidence that the NSA actually is doing that.
ECHELON has been discussed by many much more capable than myself. It has
been said that the system would be used by a pool of nations (for example the
US, Canada, and the UK). They all contribute data on foreign spying (and
industrial espionage which is clearly NOT something this agency should be
doing (for info on this check the archives for a recent post or two about the
"intel" groups increasing role in industrial espionage)). They then all have
access to this data. Which is just as good as spying on your own people
since you have the same information you would have had if you had just spied
on them in the first place.
> >Are you in ignorance of the many times they have
> >violated basic human rights, not to mention national and international
law
> in
> >pursuit of dubious schemes (Contra/cocaine, Iran/Contra, Iraqgate, LSD
> >experimentation, etc. . .)?
>
> I'm afraid I am .... not ignorant. But I wasn't aware that the NSA was the
> nasty organisation at the heart of these specific foul deeds. I had
hitherto
> understood that it was certain members of National Security COUNCILs of
past
> administrations and elements of the CIA that were involved in those
> nefarious
> activities. The NSA was indeed involved in domestic surveillance in the 60s
> and early 70s, including being used the Joint Chiefs of Staff to spy on
> Nixon
> and Kissinger who had a penchant for practising their diplomatic acrobatics
> without telling anyone else what they were doing. Other NSA targets
included
> various persons deemed subversive. But if you actually did some reading you
> would discover the NSA is now strictly forbidden to conduct any domestic
> surveillance operations, except under special guidelines, and usually only
> in
> pursuit of foreign intelligence targets residing in the US.
Oh, you are quick to qualify and downplay. "Elements" in the CIA, certain
"nefarious members" of past NSC's, and "it was Nixon". And in any case NOW
it is illegal?!?! It was illegal THEN too. Tell us all WHY we should
believe them now when they say they won't do it again when they broke the law
the first time? You are correct that the NSA is not behind some of this
stuff, I use the NSA as an example of intelligence agencies in general and
hope to establish a pattern by which one can see that they are disingenuous,
lack oversight, frequently break the law, and are always seeking more ways to
pry into my personal space. BUT wait! It is ILLEGAL now, so I guess I have
nothing to worry about.
> >Perhaps we shoul sit idly by and let them just do what they want since
> there
> >is no oversight. They even deny Congress its authority and refuse to
> release
> >information to them, or perhaps that is a matter of National Security too?
> >It is only a role that the Constitution grants them.
> >Rather than castigate me why not tell us all how valuable the NSA is and
> what
> >role they serve in garnering our National Security.
>
> Easy. The NSA intercepts foreign communications, sorts them out and
provides
> the info to your government, and in doing so attempts tell Washington what
> foreign officials & military are saying & doing privately. Quite simple &
> very useful I would think. But unless you can prove that they are not doing
> what they purport to be doing, you would seem to be expressing your own
> prejudices rather than any knowledge.
>
> BD
Can't prove a negative assertion. I say it is up to you to prove that they
are doing anything at all that is beneficial for this country. Prove that
they collect ay useful information. Prove that they are spying on any
country's military. Prove that the information they have received and passed
on (which is the role you supply them with above) has had any positive
influence. I AM expressing my prejudices, but not without foundation in
fact. Now since you imply you have the knowledge, PLEASE enlighten us all
with all your positive proofs of the great good thing the NSA is.
******************************************************************************
***********************************
"Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, "The Matrix".
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human
mind to correlate all its contents.
We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of seas of infinity,
and it is not meant that we should
voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have
hitherto harmed us little; but someday
the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying
vistas of reality, and of our
frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation
or flee from the deadly light into the
peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P.Lovecraft; "The Call of Cthulhu"
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