In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:25:42 -0500, Michael George 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

george> I have a very naieve(sp?) question...  actually a "failure to
george> understand"...
george> 
george> I've been using X since '87, with TWM until '96, with CTWM
george> since.
george> 
george> I start X with "xinit" and have my .xinitrc start up the apps
george> that I want started (xterms, xcalendars, dclock, gkrellm, etc)
george> and the last thing that runs is "ctwm", not in the background.
george> 
george> I've moved this scenario across all the Unix machines I've
george> used since '87.

This is the classic scenario that all of us have used or still use (I
do the same as you do, except I don't have ctwm as the last thing,
since I occasionally test other window managers, and would like to do
so without being logged out).

george> Enter the desktops (CDE, KDE, GNOME, etc.)
george> 
george> Initially, I thought they were like souped-up window managers.
george> But that can't be because GNOME can utilize different window
george> managers.  And from what Richard posted, it can use CTWM.
george> 
george> I'm confused as to how this works together...
george> What does a Desktop Manager like GNOME provide if it is using
george> CTWM as the window manager?

GNOME and KDE provide things that are beyond most window managers,
such as desktop icons that are used to start stuff (or look at, you
can have an icon that launches a file manager looking at your home
directory), a panel with all kind of info grouped in it, and a menu
that's independent of the window manager (and honestly is a copy of
the Windows start button system, not much else).  They also serve as
session managers.

So basically, GNOME and KDE can be seen as a grouping of components,
where the window manager is one component.  Gnome uses sawfish by
default, and I'm pretty sure sawfish can also be used as an
independent window manager (or at least could once upon a time).  KDE
uses it's own window manager...

george> Can I set up my environment for GNOME w/ CTWM so that it looks
george> just like my "raw" setup now?  No GNOME taskbar, no GNOME
george> menus, just my CTWM tabular workspace manager, tabular window
george> manager, and my crude windows.

Absolutely, and the answer is much simpler than you might imagine:
don't use GNOME.

george> How would I fire this up?  Do I add something to my .xinitrc
george> file that "starts GNOME", or do I use something like "startx"
george> that will start GNOME but then run CTWM as the window manager
george> and skip all the other GUI GNOME stuffs?

As far as I know, all it takes is having the same .xinitrc as you've
had all along.  Now, it's perfectly possible that on your system,
things have been twisted in such a way that $HOME/.xinitrc doesn't
take precedence (something I view as contrary to tradition, but YMMV),
and you'll need to figure out what you have to do to go around it.

george> If any of you would do me the favor of helping me understand
george> this situation, I'd appreciate it.  The reason it seems
george> important is because when I try to run some GNOME apps with
george> things as I have them now, they complain about some GNOME-ish
george> stuff not being available.  And when I posted a
george> question/comment about it, it seemed that no one else is
george> having such trouble.  So I think the issue is w/ how I've got
george> my environment set up rather than w/ CTWM...

It may be that you've hardcoded certain things that you shouldn't.
It's impossible for me to figure out what unless you tell me (or
anyone of us, I'm definitely not the one to look for all answers when
it comes to GNOME) exactly what those GNOME applications complain
about, or what your setup looks like.

Also, you need to remember that certain programs are built to run
under GNOME specifically, for example by expecting to dock into the
GNOME panel or things like that...

-- 
Richard Levitte     | http://richard.levitte.org/ | Spannv. 38, I
Levitte Programming | http://www.lp.se/           | S-168 35 Bromma
T: +46-708-26 53 44 |                             | SWEDEN
     "Price, performance, quality...  choose the two you like"

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