On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 11:32:08AM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
> > The big pollution issues with ethanol are in growing the corn, sugar, etc.
> > that's used to brew the stuff, fermenting it, and distilling it.
There's no *real* pollution (toxic emissions, that is) from fermenting
and distilling it. And yes, I've smelled brewerys, in fact done a fair amount of
brewing and distilling myself. Major difference between the emissions of ethanol
plants and petrorefineries.
>
> Ethanol from biomass is complete nonsense.
For corn, certainly, only the current subsidies make it viable. But it works
for Brazil using sugar cane, they run a major portion of their vehicles on it.
> So is biodiesel, given what
> fuel yield/m^2 is (can make sense for you personally if you have a lot of
> land, doesn't scale for the culture as a whole).
635 gal @ acre for a permaculture crop like oil palm works pretty well. It
might not be the whole answer, but it's certainly part of the solution. But even
here in the northern midwest US, I can grow enough canola on two acres to fuel
my car, and I've got 40 acres to play with at present. Works for me.
> You can make synfuel from
> biomass, though, there have been a few new processes (catalyzed, low temp)
> and reactor designs lately. There's a lot of cellulose and lignin out
> there.
>
> Ethanol sucks, but synmethanol has interesting synergisms. It is currently
> made from synthesis gas (which is mostly made from reformed natural gas,
> but can also be made from fossil (oil, coal, shale) or biomass, with
> hydrogen input) on a very large scale. Fossil fuel lobby goes in bed with
> the synmethanol lobby. Methanol has about half the energy density of gas,
> but it can be burned in ICUs (producing a cleaner exhaust), processed in
> onboard reformers and direct methanol fuel cells. Current fuel cells use
> platinum catalysts, but it is not fundamental to the principle.
>
> Methanol easily reforms to hydrogen and carbon dioxide, so it's your foot
> in the door of hydrogen economy. I'd say it's the best storage form of
> hydrogen for small mobile applications (planes and ships and large trucks
> excluding).
Yes, synfuels are definitely part of the solution.
>
> > Even if it's grown "organically" (or at least without pesticides,
> > which is easier to do with corn that doesn't have to look good for market),
Once again -- corn is a pathetic feedstock for ethanol.
> > it's still a big issue with habitat destruction,
??? The farms are already there, native flora long gone. In many cases, at
least here in the midwest, much of this farmland is actually wetlands that have
been drained. Crush the drain tiles, fill the ditches, plant cattails. The whole
environment benefits and you have an excellent permaculture ethanol crop. And
excellent livestock feed left over after the distillation. It's a real win-win.
> and by the way,
> > have you ever smelled a brewery? :-)
Yeah, Milwaukee is full of them. Doesn't smell nearly as bad as the paper
mills. Pretty much the same as a bakery. And I don't have to worry about it
being toxic.
>
> Ecoaudit of bioethanol is a desaster, period.
>
Not if the feedstock is grown organically. And the idea that organic farmers
can't produce as well as chemical/industrial agriculture is a total myth,
disproven many times over. In fact, chemical farming only works with massive
crop subsidies. Take away that corporate welfare (and the farmers here get
absolutely obscene amounts of money from the gov't) and they are instantly
bankrupt, while the organic farmers aren't.
Biomass grown as a permaculture crop such as such as
switchgrass works even better -- native prairies can be restored, for instance,
on marginal or worn out farmland and makes a terrific feedstock. Cattails are
another, in fact within 30 miles of me there are at least 10,000 acres of
cattails the state would allow me to harvest, possibly even give me a grant to
do it -- and that produces at 28 *dried* tons @ acre with a 35-40% starch
content. That's a lot of ethanol going to waste. Right now they're spending
money trying to burn it to get rid of it.
There are many more examples -- a tremendous amount of feedstock gets
landfilled. Sewage sludge can be gasified and synfuel made from the gas -- right
now the cities *pay* farmers to spread it on their land, which, here in WI will
very soon be illegal and the sludge landfilled.
(snip)
--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com
