On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Xenophon wrote:
> > It is _precisely_ because of this ignorance that makes Anonymous' point so
> > relevent.
>
> For every American mouth-breather who calls all Democrats commie bastards, there is
> another who laments 'American ignorance'. Both are trite.
You're probably right. Then there is that third group that goes around
with a platonic razor blade using words like 'trite.' Which one do you
fall into? :)
Seriously.. after re-reading my message, I can see how I came off as
sounding like I think all of my countrymen other than myself are idiots.
I meant no such implication.
The problem is the herd mentality. When I get Joe Average alone, sit down
and reason with him I find that most times we share a good deal of
insights and we both go away from the discussion better off .. its when
you get people in a group that things go astray.
Joe doesn't want to look like a commie-pinko in John's eyes, so he doesn't
speak up, and John doesn't want to look gay so he doesn't speak up about
some homosexual kid getting the shit kicked out of him for no reason and
all in all shit heads down hill really quick.
Pulling one over on an individual can be tricky sometimes .. pulling one
over on a mass of people seems easier in certain cases. Thats the problem,
in a nutshell as I see it.
> Most Euros have warped and
> manipulated perceptions of the US, ("it's all LA Law, and black gangs
> rampaging through neighborhoods"). If one were to quantify ignorance,
> one would find that the U.S. is far from having a corner on its market.
Right. I didn't address the mis-perceptions of other countries because
I wanted to specifically focus on the average American's view of
Communism, and in particular, how that view is spoon fed to him with
little thought behind it on his part.
Humans are humans, after all, and yes.. the herd mentality screws us over
no matter where we draw the lines on our maps.
> > I'd take issue with that, in a round-about way. Uncle Sam steals your coin
> > because there are a shit-load of Americans out there with less-than-dick
> > for resources.
>
> Uncle Sam, or any other regime, steals money because it can. Even if
> the reasons were honest, (they are not), you accurately define what is
> going on. It's theft. Some of us are unwilling to exploit the
> unfortunate to justify thievery.
Come now. It is not theft if you agree to give the money away, which you
implicitly do by living in America and being an American citizen. If
you really feel that strongly about it, you are free to find a country
that better suits you. Or, like me, accept your fringe status, bow to
the majority rule of democracy, accept your burden, and in your spare
time work to try and change some of the laws.
Or, of course, you could get a shit load of anthrax and march on capitol
hill.
>
> > Capitalism, with its emphasis on the profit margin can't always afford
> > to give the working poor a decent wage,
>
> You really believe that, don't you? You've made it clear that you are familiar with
> Marx (and, as a result, are also familiar with his idea of the objective nature of
> value. Puh.) Have you read any of the Capitalist source texts? The idea isn't about
> profit, per se, it's about economic self determination, and about the subjective
> nature of value. (Hint: Adam Smith, von Mises, Hayek, Friedman)
I've read Smith and Friedman.. and, since you are familar with Marx, you
realize that his dream degraded in practice .. just like the dream of
pure capitalism has.
The ideal of self determination gave way to the '80 "greed is good" as
easily as the "worker's paradise" gave way to a bullshit puppet show with
the privledged party members pulling the strings.
I'm critical of communism because it failed, and I'm critical of the men
who put it into practice for allowing it to fail. Same holds true for
American democracy and capitalism.
> The vast bulk of your beloved social programs
I'll just cut you off there .. I never said I loved any of our social
programs, I was just giving the reasoning behind it all.
As I said in another message, I'd LOVE to cut taxes (give people more of
their money to make them less dependant on social programs), and take just
a bit to run the government (preferrably with voluntary taxes, like we
SHOULD have), and put into social programs for honest, working folks who
simply just hit bad times.
Hell, it could even be in the form of a zero-interest loan. Give the
family some money until the hard times pass, and let them pay it off
little-by-little, the money goes back into the system to help more people.
That small percentage of our taxes picks up the slack for inflation.
Yes, our social programs are messed up .. and yes, they do more harm
than good, but that is because the machinery of our government is
inefficient, not because giving money to the unfortunate is
less-than-desirable.
> If every sanctimonious asshole who would steal my money for the sake of
> the "less fortunate" would simply find one person, just one, and do
> something to improve that persons life, the so called problem of
> poverty would be eliminated. But that's too hard. Better to hire a
> group of mercenary terrorists to steal other peoples money and then
> dole it out...
On behalf of everyone how has done volunteer work: go fuck yourself.
I've tutored kids in math and computer programming. I've helped build
machines for those kids. I've worked in homeless shelters and soup
kitchens. I know all about how messed up our social programs are, and
I know how many times they fail .. but I also know how many times they
succeed. And yes, I'd like to make those programs more efficient so
that they are more successful, most of the time. But while I'm working
to do that, I'm sure as hell not going to shut down those centers.
> > The name escapes me at the moment, but some Capitalist asshole/theorist
> > once said something along the lines of:
> > "The answer to our question (what do we do about the poor) is simple:
> > nothing. We need an impoverished working class to supply cheap labor to
> > our corporations. They must, after all, turn a profit."
>
> Therefore Capitalism sucks and Americans are ignorant?
Capitalism does suck, and yes .. the average American is ignorant about
what the hell is going on around the world.. but it is precisely because
I love:
a) the idea of making a little coin and pursuing life, liberty
and happiness
b) American people and culture
that I'm trying to plug the leaks in this boat before we all
drown.
> Here is a truth that you have failed to consider: Money is the measure
> of a persons worth to society. It always has been.
I disagree. Gandhi. Beloved by people around the world, and I doubt it is
because a handful of books about him were sold.
Einstein. Respected by people who don't know the importance of his work.
Considered the quintescential physicist.. and I doubt relativity has
done much for our economy. We we hit hard-core deep space travel or
some other weird shit and his discoveries start having practical import
in the economic life of Joe Sixpack, I doubt he his popularity is going
to suddenly jump.
> > I don't know what socio-economic system would work best; but I DO know
> > that I will never like that which places shackles on the souls of men.
>
> People get what they deserve. More often than not, they place the shackles upon
> themselves.
Hopefully people DO get what they deserve.
Michael J. Graffam ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.
The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit
to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
- Albert Einstein
