On 9/1/16 4:43 PM, juan wrote: > On Thu, 1 Sep 2016 14:52:17 -0700 > "Stephen D. Williams" <s...@lig.net> wrote: > > >> Have you actually read the Manifesto in its several forms? Do you >> understand it? >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-anarchism >> [2] http://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/crypto-anarchy.html > And here's [3] > http://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html > > "We cannot expect governments, corporations, or other large, > faceless organizations to grant us privacy out of their > beneficence" > > "We must defend our own privacy if we expect to have any. " > > Again, a typical anarchist position. Governments and businesses > don't provide service X (they actually destroy X) so we need to > provide X ourselves.
And a typical American position on every right we've ever won or defended. > >> Did you read my point about free-speech-anarchy a few weeks ago? > Yes. I might even haver replied to it. It's nonsese. I don't know what that is. I'm sure there are plenty who are uncomfortable with encryption etc. who think it is nonsense too, but I think I have a point. > >> Did >> you understand it? > Yes. It's the kind of nonsense that american jingos like to > believe about the 'ex' SLAVE society they live in. Ex-colony, ex-slave, ex-colonial, etc. It's not all pretty, but it is experience. > > >> What about the point I just made about adapting >> and adopting solutions to emerging changes? > ...has nothing to do with anarchy per se. Totalitarian > governments can also adapt to change. Not as fast or as well. Which totalitarian regimes are comfortable with the Internet, Facebook, startups, Bitcoin, etc.? > > > >> Cypherpunks has always straddled a number of areas; exploring the >> implications of crypto-anarchism is one of them. Even in May's >> quotes in [1], it isn't necessarily the point to have a collapse of a >> system as a goal, but to examine it as a possibility. I think the >> attitude is that if you come to believe that encryption and other >> security measures must be available, perhaps as an extension of free >> speech, and those cause weak or broken systems to collapse, then so >> be it. > Maybe that's your attitude. It doesn't have to be mine. > > >> All kinds of things have been exposed recently. Do you think >> that makes the US any close to collapse? > > No. The totalitarian state you love so much isn't close to > collapse. That's why we are fucked. ('we' here doesn't include > you) Totalitarian? What's your model of a liberal state? Since it seems you desire anarchy so much, I'm curious whether you have you read Lord of the Flies? > > >> Bad systems should change drastically or collapse, good systems >> should adapt and flourish. Do you disagree with that? > > I agree that morally good stuff is good... Based on your writing, that's a surprise. > > >>>> Especially prove that it isn't true for >>>> Americans. The US government kept functioning normally even >>>> through a civil war, world wars, 3 industrial revolutions, all >>>> kinds of corruption, etc. Here, I'm not talking about >>>> exceptionalism in general, just the point that if crazies make it >>>> into power, they are limited and don't last. Point out a better >>>> system. (The British are said to no longer be making fun of our >>>> political system as of Brexit. ;-) ) >>>> >>>> I don't have time to get into it, but I think that the >>>> exceptionalism perception, the quality of it, meaning, and use, is >>>> overblown in some key ways. We have evidence that certain things >>>> work and certain things don't. There is a big interplay with >>>> culture and back stories that affect some of that, but most of it >>>> could transfer anywhere. Maybe we're confused sometimes, but we >>>> have open debate to try to fix that. We regularly fix things that >>>> aren't working with only things like rights as being inviolable. >>>> It isn't 'we are Americans and therefore you suck'. It is more >>>> like "we have this cool open source government project, why not >>>> fork it and see if it works for you better than that old >>>> governmentware you're running". We are tired of being asked to >>>> fix your old broken down governmentputer because you insist on >>>> running VMS and Windows. Or your cousin's obsolete system because >>>> you can't support them well. Or whatever. If you can make it >>>> work, then do it. Otherwise, upgrade. >>>> >>>> sdw >>>> >>>>>> sdw >>>>>> >> sdw >> sdw