> On Sun, 18 Sep 2016 21:20:15 -0000
> xorc...@sigaint.org wrote:
>       I think, though I'm not completely sure, that there was a
>       rather widespread opposition to the clipper chip, including
>       opposition among more 'respectable' members of the
>       establishment. The same members of the establishment that today
>       fully backdoor their own chips, like intel and amd.

Not that I recall. Outside of computer and crypto-nerd rings, few had even
heard about it. This was the '90s. Ma and Pa weren't on the internet yet.
No one really knew what the fuck the internet was.

There was very little coverage in the media. I don't recall many senators
opposing it. But nonetheless, you can throw PGP in there too.

If the state had its way, there would still be a crypto export ban, and
you've have mandatory key escrow.

>       Yes, bitcoin is interesting, but if so called regulators
>       wanted to damage it, they could do so in a few days.

That's hardly the point. The question wasn't what technical/code type
things are invulnerable to the state. The question was, what sort of
crypto/techie stuff has encroached on traditional state power, or limited
its reach.

I'd also offer that in Real Soon Now, you'll see small towns adopt
crowdfunding in lieu of taxation. That will spread, and probably quite

The point is, there are all sorts of things that are eroding state power,
or have the ability to do so, right now.

>       That's pretty much a tautology. But reality includes people, who
>       are supposed to be moral agents and can choose to behave in
>       different ways.

Well, now we get into the whole free will thing. Sure. We have free will,
or at least if we don't, I'm apparently not free to believe otherwise. But
there are limits to it.

The social milieu is much like a river. You can swim in it, and to a
degree you can control your direction, but you will always be moving with
the current. If you're an extraordinary swimmer, maybe you can make
progress against the current. These are the <insert your favorite
inspirational social reformers here>.

A white male living in 1740 quite literally was not AS FREE as you or I in
terms of his beliefs about race, slavery, God, and so on. Social pressure.

Could he CHOOSE to marry a freed black woman? Yeah. In theory, but you
have to accept he'd be an incredible anomaly.

Now, not so much.

>> And reality IS that every social animal has a pecking order.. an
>> alpha/beta dynamic. Humans are not exempt from this, and it manifests
>> for us, in various forms, and governments and our institutions are
>> among them. It's why the most driven, "alpha" sociopaths rise to
>> power, and the whiny betas piss and moan about it, and don't.
>       So you think there are no honest people - people who seem
>       honest are actually cowards?

No, I'm not sure where you're getting that from with that. My point here
is simply that there are underlying dynamics that we usually explain away,
but which we don't actually understand. So, in the above, I'm trying to
suggest that your average person NEEDS authority to bow to. They really do
need it. Without it, they are like a dog that loses the leader of its
pack. It is a frightening situation, and fills them with anxiety. The
primary characteristic of a leader, in humans, is when the shit is hitting
the fan and most people are unsure of what to do, and pissing themselves..
the leader says, I KNOW WHAT TO DO. He's quick. He's certain. He's
"strong." That is comforting to people. Hence, Trump, by the way.

But for another example, take war. Chimpanzees go to war. There are times
when their population will fragment, and two camps will emerge. Males will
engage in late-night raiding parties, surprise attacks, killing other
males and male children, kidnapping females, and stealing food.

That is not appreciably different to how human war was fought for hundreds
of thousands of years. Recently, we don't kidnap females, and we don't
steal food. We're interested in other resources.

Now, are these similarities between social mammalian alpha/beta dynamics
to human dynamics coincidence? Is it coincidence that our closest cousins,
chimps, engage in organized violence similar to us? Or are there real
animal dynamics at work? Herd dynamics.

I personally don't think so.

And my point in all this is to show that, its not a problem with
institutions, religions, politics, "the elite" or any of that stuff. All
of those things are SYMPTOMS of the real problem.

The real problem, being, we act like what we are: primates.

>       I'd point out that yes, the current system is a horrid mess,
>       but if we assume it's the result of real, unchangeable 'human
>       nature' that 'just exists', then any action is pointless,
>       unless we want to join 'their' side of the game.

No, not at all. Evolve, and encourage others to do so as well. Look,
gravity exists. A downward pull to the earth exists. It's unchangeable.
Period. But it can be USED, and overcome. That takes insight into those
dynamics though.

A great part of our social dynamics is rooted in our primate past. We
can't escape it, but we can acknowledge it, acknowledge its pull.. like
gravity. And we can begin to understand it, and understand how to overcome

At an individual level, it simply entails thinking at a "higher" level
than the ego. At that ability will come and go, depending on stress level,
hormones, concentration, all sorts of shit. But the more you do it, the
more you cease to think in the ordinary primate ways, and begin to think
in new ways.

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