Thank you Dan and thank you everyone who has responded and is responding. It certainly seems that lots of people are interested in this issue
What is so strange is the variety of responses, particularly with reference to the Austrian option. Some seem to have had help and encouragement from Austrian Consulates and others seem to have been stuck in very lengthy processes. Some seem to have "open and shut" cases that should qualify for citizenship but are still receiving problems. Others have been "approached" by the Austrian authorities to take up citizenship. It seems like Austria is (very belatedly) trying to improve what it is now doing to address the debt they have to so many of its former Jewish citizens but also that the process is not running in a uniformly, smooth fashion. My grandparents were born in the Austro-Hungarian territories of Galicia and Bukovina before WW1 and travelled to Germany in 1930. They escaped the Nazis and went to England in 1939. The Austrian rules address their former citizens from what is now Ukraine and Romania but state that they had to escape National Socialist persecution in "the Austrian Republic" before WW2. My understanding of the term "Austrian Republic" is that it is the geographical territory formed in 1918/19 and roughly the same as the current borders of modern day Austria. However, in March 1938 Austria was annexed by Germany in the Anschluss so Austria and Germany were one country from 1938 to 1945. My grandparents and my mother left Germany (Stuttgart) in 1939 so was that technically the same as Austria as the two countries were in fact one unified country? This may seem like legal nit-picking but it could make the difference to whether or not we qualify under these new Austrian rules I am not expecting anyone to have the answer to this but I would be interested to hear if any of you have any opinions on this Many thanks Alan <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, 27 Jan 2021 at 03:18, Dan Raynes <danrayne...@gmail.com> wrote: > All, > > I have been investigating this for the last few months and I can share > what I have learned about European citizenship by descent, at least for > my background. I am a US Citizen but very interested in getting my > Romanian citizenship. My grandmother is from Raddutz, in Buckovina. She > was born there in 1898 and left for the USA in 1920. My grandfather (her > husband) came from Russia and I have no interest in that citizenship even > if was available. From the other side my great grandparents came from > Poland (eventually Lithuania). I did not meet the Poland criteria for > citizenship by descent. There were three routes I could go with my > grandmother, Romanian, Hungarian and Austrian. As you may know Buckovina, > Romania during WW1 and afterwards overlaps with these three countries. I > got mixed messages on all these for a long time and went back and forth. > I can share what I have learned: > > Austria: Unless you can prove that your family left National Socialism > after 1933, though you will have better luck if it is after 1938 than this > route is out. It took a number of calls to my local Austrian consulate to > get the answer. I will say this though they were phenomenally eager to > help and if there was a way they would. I was very impressed with the Los > Angeles consulate > > Hungary: I am not much of a fan of their government right wing and anti > immigrant. I do theoretically meet their requirement from background. > However they now require you to be fluent in reading, writing and speaking > Hungarian. I can respect that after all I would want the same for > someone wanting to be a citizen of my country. With their anti immigrant > stance though what if you spent a lot of time learning their language and > they felt for whatever arbitrary reason you still don't make it. > > Romania: I have gotten so many mixed messages on this. The first > Romanian law firm told me that since my grandmother was born in > Austria-Hungary and did not officially become a Romanian citizen after the > Great War before she left for the US than she was in effect stateless so I > do not qualify. > I am now talking to a new Romanian law firm that says I do qualify based > on the documentation I shared with them and the call my brother and I had > with them. We did an initial consulting call that had a fee to it. We > are doing research before we decide to go further. We have two major > hangups. My grandmother's maiden name in Romania was Schachter. When > she came to the US for whatever reason (perhaps US Immigration changed it?) > all her documentation in the US now has Schecter. She was born in July > 1898. Yet the US did not ask for documentation when you came back than > and perhaps she wanted to be younger for marital reasons she changed the > year and date in July 1900. So we have to build a case to prove that she > is one in the same and it may go to litigation. > > Has anyone on here had a similar situation with a grandparent from a > former territory of Austria - Hungary that became Romania and they left in > the intervening war years? > > Thanks > Dan > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 5:36 AM Rennert Gad <renn...@technion.ac.il> > wrote: > >> With the new law, now in effect in Austria regarding Jews after WWII, I >> applied through the Austrian embassy in Israel and received a response that >> they do not think I am eligible. This is not clear to me as my father was >> born in Austro-Hungary in 1918 before they became “Romania” and his and my >> mother’s birth registration is in written in German (the spoken language at >> home which now I understand is more Austrian German than German German). >> Needless to mention that both of my parents ended spending long periods in >> camps in Transnistria. >> >> >> >> And BTW, they did not have a problem with me having former nationalities >> >> >> >> Gadi >> >> >> >> *From:* bounce-125333663-73784...@list.cornell.edu [mailto: >> bounce-125333663-73784...@list.cornell.edu] *On Behalf Of *Karin Perrin >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 2:28 PM >> *To:* Alan Gavurin <gavu...@gmail.com> >> *Cc:* Arthur von Czernowitz <vonczernow...@yahoo.com>; >> czernowit...@cornell.edu; glasg...@bellsouth.net >> *Subject:* RE: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal >> Support >> >> >> >> Sounds very encouraging. >> >> Have read the link and might be a possibility. I will get in touch. You >> have been most helpful, Alan. >> >> Kind regards >> >> Karin >> >> >> >> *From:* Alan Gavurin <gavu...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* 26 January 2021 12:24 >> *To:* Karin Perrin <ka...@karinp.co.uk> >> *Cc:* Arthur von Czernowitz <vonczernow...@yahoo.com>; >> czernowit...@cornell.edu; glasg...@bellsouth.net >> *Subject:* Re: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal >> Support >> >> >> >> Hi Karin >> >> >> >> Happy to have helped to stimulate this point (along with Arthur, Bertie >> and others) >> >> >> >> re the dual nationality point see below from the Austrian Embassy in >> London website - I think dual nationality is fine if you qualify using this >> route (which is another question) >> >> >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> Citizenship for descendants of victims of National Socialism – >> Österreichische Botschaft London (bmeia.gv.at) >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmeia.gv.at%2Fen%2Faustrian-embassy-london%2Fservice-for-citizens%2Fcitizenship-for-descendants-of-victims-of-national-socialism%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crennert%40technion.ac.il%7C48af05e741e240ec65d908d8c1f814f9%7Cf1502c4cee2e411c9715c855f6753b84%7C1%7C0%7C637472618547801920%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=8YIxqsFfg7U1FpDBxOmoT9gMaJZFR%2FzviDixvKrACKs%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> According to the new § 58c para. 1a of the Austrian Citizenship Act >> *descendants >> of victims of the National Socialist regime* can *acquire Austrian >> citizenship by means of a declaration *(“Anzeige”), without having to >> give up their current citizenship or nationality in return. >> >> Please note, however, that the law in some countries provides for the >> *automatic *loss of its citizenship or nationality if you acquire >> another citizenship. In case of doubt, please check with the competent >> authority of your home country. >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 12:18, Karin Perrin <ka...@karinp.co.uk> wrote: >> >> Hi Alan >> >> A conundrum. >> >> You are encouraging me to investigate the route of Austrian citizenship. >> The Romanian route is stagnating. Various excuses… >> >> I never thought that joining the Czernowitz group would lead to such >> interesting conversations… 😊 >> >> >> >> Karin >> >> >> >> *From:* Alan Gavurin <gavu...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* 26 January 2021 11:36 >> *To:* Karin Perrin <ka...@karinp.co.uk> >> *Cc:* Arthur von Czernowitz <vonczernow...@yahoo.com>; >> czernowit...@cornell.edu; glasg...@bellsouth.net >> *Subject:* Re: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal >> Support >> >> >> >> Thank you Karin & Arthur for raising the Austrian Citizenship question >> >> >> >> Firstly, Karin it seems that you must have a chance to apply again to >> Austria having already once held citizenship. I think there is a >> significant element of restitution and nations trying to confront errors of >> the past in some of these recent changes to citizenship rules - also see >> Portugal and, to a lesser extent, Spain. >> >> >> >> The issue of dual nationality is clearly important, especially to those >> of us in the UK who are looking to re-create our links to Europe after the >> terrible disaster of Brexit. I believe Romania does, Poland is not keen but >> may do so and Germany has now changed its rules to not allow it with non EU >> countries (like the UK post 2020) although if you are applying for German >> citizenship because it was lost as a result of Nazi oppression then you CAN >> apparently hold dual citizenship. >> >> >> >> I have struggled with understanding the Austrian offer. I will try and >> look into it in more detail but it could be interesting. Does it matter >> that, after leaving Kolomya & Vijnita, my grandparents went to Germany and >> never lived in what is modern-day Austria? >> >> >> >> My grandparents on my mother's side came from Kolomyja and Vijnita >> (Wiznitz) - the two towns are 50km apart but when they were born in >> 1908/1911 one was in the Austro-Hungarian province of Galicia and one was >> in the A-H province of Bukovina. Now both are in Ukraine (via USSR). In >> between WW1 & WW2 Vijnita was in Romania. >> >> >> >> So we have been looking at Romanian citizenship (as I said previously) >> and also German citizenship as my mother was born there in 1938 but as my >> grandparents never became German citizens this is proving difficult. >> >> >> >> So what is it to be? >> >> >> >> Happy to discuss this further with anyone who knows more about the >> Austrian option or wants to compare notes >> >> >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 at 11:09, Karin Perrin <ka...@karinp.co.uk> wrote: >> >> Dear all >> >> Just musing on the Austrian passport options…. >> >> >> >> Many many years ago, after living in the UK for many years, I became a >> UK citizen. At the time the Austrians (not members of the EU till 1995) >> asked me to sign a document giving up my Austrian citizenship “for ever” . >> (I had had Austrian citizenship since I was a child – I am not sure on what >> basis my father was able to get this after the war when the whole family >> was stateless after escaping Romania). The Austrian government, at the time >> I became a UK national (1980s), would not accept dual nationality. The UK >> had no problem with dual nationalities and I believe still does not. Just >> mentioning this in case it affects the route to Austrian citizenship – do >> they still refuse dual citizenship even if part of the EU now? On my >> mother’s side of the family we are indeed old “Austro Hungarians” so in >> principle Arthur’s idea might be a route I also could take, in search of a >> EU passport. But I personally might be blocked due to my “unpatriotic >> actions”! >> >> >> >> Regards to all. >> >> Karin >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* bounce-125331222-87608...@list.cornell.edu < >> bounce-125331222-87608...@list.cornell.edu> *On Behalf Of *Arthur von >> Czernowitz >> *Sent:* 25 January 2021 13:55 >> *To:* Alan Gavurin <gavu...@gmail.com> >> *Cc:* czernowit...@cornell.edu; Gold-Glasberg, Ruth < >> glasg...@bellsouth.net> >> *Subject:* Re: [czernowitz-l] Applying for Romanian Citizenship - Legal >> Support >> >> >> >> Hello Alan >> >> I believe that you and your brother are after an European passport. >> >> I thing that there is another way, you can also try in obtaining an >> Austrian passport if you can prove that your grandfather had Austrian >> citizenship. >> >> >> >> Do you speak Hebrew? If yes I could possibly help you with the Romanian >> route. >> >> >> >> Arthur >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> >> On Jan 25, 2021, at 3:21 AM, Alan Gavurin <gavu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Friends >> >> >> >> Forgive me if this has been discussed before but my brother and I are >> considering applEying for Romanian citizenship because our late >> grandfather was born in Wiznitz/Vijnita/Vyzhnytsia in 1911 >> >> >> >> Have any of you gone down this path? I know of at least one other >> Czernowitzer who is. >> >> >> >> Can any of you recommend a good Romanian lawyer who could help us. >> >> >> >> I have already approached two Romanian lawyers - one says he does not >> take cases where the relatives come from outside current Romanian borders >> (ie present day Ukraine) and the other does not speak English so we are >> really struggling to understand the technicalities and I don't think Google >> Translate is helping very much >> >> >> >> Any recommendations would be gratefully received >> >> >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Alan Gavurin >> London >> UK >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------ >> >> This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the >> subject of >> Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. 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The opinions >> expressed >> in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not >> necessarily >> the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members >> or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has >> an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a >> searchable archive of all messages posted to this list. >> >> To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. >> >> To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions >> <https://it.cornell.edu/lyris/leave-e-lists-lyris>. >> >> To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: >> owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> > > > -- > > > Thank you > Dan Raynes > cell 408.981.8901 > -- Alan Gavurin 45 Orpington Road Winchmore Hill London N21 3PL (t) 020 8882 1423 (m) 07973 424357 <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ******************************************************************************* This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. 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