Re: [czernowitz-l] czernowitz-l digest: November 29, 2022

[Miriam Suss]

Dear Leah A note for those fortunate list members whose parents or grandparents are still alive. Your response has reminded me of a habit I got into when my mother was in her nineties and many of our interactions were spent sitting across from each other at the kitchen table while she reminisced over her happy Czernowitz childhood days and agonised over her painful Transnistria memories.  I would prop up my iPhone against a coffee cup, switch on the video  recording function and ask her lots of questions. Eventually I had hours of footage- all very precious as my mother was adamant that she would not be interviewed to provide her testimony for Spielberg or our local Holocaust museum. Today I return to them when I need to hear her voice. Oh what a treasure is this list! Miriam Suss Melbourne Australia  Email: ms...@bigpond.net.au On 30 Nov 2022, at 12:54 am, Sniderlh <snide...@netscape.net> wrote:  Hi Berti & Boaz, This has been an interesting conversation to follow on a "meaty" topic, not just dealing with genealogical matters.  Thank you both.  I would have to agree, too, with, Miriam, in regard to discussions with her mother.  More and more I find myself recalling a myriad of fascinating conversations with my father (born 1911 in CZ) and his life in "the Old World." I know I never appreciated them enough, or understood facts well enough in my youth. My biggest regret, however, is not having captured those talks in recordings, as memories/details fade over time, and his actual voice has disappeared forever ): Leah Heilpern Snider Silverdale, WA - USA -----Original Message----- From: Czernowitz Genealogy and History digest <czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu> To: czernowitz-l digest recipients <czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu> Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2022 9:00 pm Subject: czernowitz-l digest: November 29, 2022 Subject: czernowitz-l digest: November 29, 2022 From: "Czernowitz Genealogy and History digest" <czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu> Reply-To: "Czernowitz Genealogy and History" <czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 00:00:57 -0500 CZERNOWITZ-L Digest for Tuesday, November 29, 2022. 1. Re: Question about Sadgura culture 2. Re: Question about Sadgura culture 3. Re: Question about Sadgura culture ******************************************************************************* This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of  Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a  searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.  Beginning in 2021, message are archived at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow the directions at https://it.cornell.edu/lyris/leave-e-lists-lyris To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Berti As always it’s a delight to read your contribution- a veritable treasure of information of cultural characteristics and historical facts from the Bukovina. Especially interesting from someone with memories of those days. I miss similar conversations with my mother Cecilia (born in Cz in 1918). Thanks for replying to Boaz’s difficult question. Miriam Suss Melbourne Australia  Email: ms...@bigpond.net.au On 27 Nov 2022, at 11:00 pm, Berti Glaubach <berti.glaub...@gmail.com> wrote:  Hi Boaz, I suppose that nobody from the group even considered answering your question. Up to now all second or third generation Czernowitzers were interested in information about the whereabouts of their ancestors, births, marriages, deaths, families, careers etc. All about facts. There are of course personal stories collected on Ehpes, stories that might give an opening to character traits of some parents or great parents, but your question is so generally formulated that I doubt there is an intelligent answer to it. Still, I decided to make a try of isolating some variables of this complex endeavor, because I don’t quite have other things to do, and given my age I might be one of the few who have personal memories about the cultures you refer to.   I am placed locally and temporarily on the line between Sadagura and Vienna. I/e. born in Czernowitz 1929, half generation between your father and grandfather, geographically and more important culturally, also in a town between them. The gradient from a religiously traditional Jewish society of Sadagura to one more liberal, assimilated, although still mostly concentrated in Leopoldstadt (the 2. Bezirk also called Judenstadt at that time), passed through Czern., which had both characteristics, in time and culturally, proceeding from Sadagura to Vienna.     The Yiddish _expression_ for not giving in, in disputes is to be an Akschen. The royal court of the Sadagura Rebbe, the internal fights and family disputes, the case of the son Bereniu who was brought back to the court by force over the frontier from Suceava (Rumania), are examples of this trait. You may look up the History of the Jews of Bukovina by Gold.   As to Vienna, when I arrived in Israel in 1950, I heard for the first time the _expression_ “Besserwisser”, meaning somebody who knows better, indifferently of what arguments you bring along. It was particularly targeted at Jews coming from Vienna and I had the occasion to prove the assessment personally. A Viennese Jew always knew better – decades later I could confirm from personal experience that the phenomenon was not limited to Jews, a good part of the population of the city “knew better”. Not my personal friends though.   All this is of course to be taken with a grain of salt, it probably was quite standard in the region and at the time.   I suppose the more important cause of the difference of opinion you refer to should be attributed to the generation gap. Your father might have accepted and continued the political opinions of your grandparent but refused to be himself intolerant and as you write, avoiding conflicts that your grandfather would have pleasure to express. Father/son conflicts are often resolved by partial identification (political) and practical opposite behavior i.e., being a nice person.   What shaped the characters of both men will probably mostly remain in the dark. I am still working at the causes in my own life. You really have all the time to ponder about your roots. Best, Berti. On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 1:10 PM B W <weinb...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi group, My grandfather was born and raised in Sadgura until 1916 when he and family moved to Vienna. He then barely escaped in 1938. I met him several times. He didn’t tolerate disagreement well, especially on political matters. My father, now elderly, is  hesitant to express his opinion on anything, and conflict avoidant, except on politics. He’ll steer conversations to politics and then give an uninformed, rigid political opinion - almost like a test of loyalty.  I don’t understand these behaviors, and I wonder if it can be attributed to the jewish culture in sadgura or vienna of the time. Do these behaviors ring a bell? Thank you for any information.  Boaz  This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of    Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed  in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily  the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members  or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has   an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a    searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.   Beginning in 2021, archived messages can be found at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions. To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu   -- Wo Es war, soll Ich sein. This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of    Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed  in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily  the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members  or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has   an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a    searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.   Beginning in 2021, archived messages can be found at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions. To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu   Czernowitzers, Boaz, Mark, Berti, Miriam,=0A= =0A= I love this thread and am thrilled by your contributions. When my father pa= ssed away in 2001, he left his (unpublished) memoirs and the (published) le= tters of his father, i. e. my grandfather Elias Hauster from 1946-1949:=0A= =0A= http://radautz.blogspot.com=0A= =0A= These were answers to many questions - not asked, not asked by me, not aske= d by me in due time - and this hurt my father throughout his life. But he w= as anything but conflict-averse, neither in private nor in political matter= s, and therefore our relationship was difficult, to put it mildly. This app= lies equally to the relationship between my father and my grandfather. Let'= s try an insight into their world of thought on 07.04.1947 [http://radautz.= blogspot.com/2007/12/blog-post.html]:=0A= =0A= =84Unfortunately, I have fallen into a time when the most shattering traged= y of mankind is taking place, in that European culture received a deadly bl= ow from the advance of the Steppe [synonym for the Soviet Union], comparabl= e only to the Migration Period, which came to a halt only after 300 years. = Driven from my home and my domestic existence, I became from the mental fin= e worker [under Austro-Hungarian reign] to the mud and water carrier, we li= ve [in Radautz] in empty rooms with some crudely carpentered household appl= iances, our stuff is tattered, a son [Maximilian Hauster] is murdered [in A= uschwitz], winters we suffered from cold, still now it is here early in the= morning and at night sensitively chilly. Our hygiene (only ablutions, beca= use we are "people without bath") is at the zero point in winter, as far as= possible, the cold must replace the hygiene. I was forced to throw away pa= rt of my spiritual life in 1942 [under Greater Romania dicatatorship] for c= ornmeal, and part of it into the Steppe [see above]. Mother can't keep to a= diet, we haven't seen bread for months. We can't spend 100,000 Lei for _one_= kilogram of bread! You will therefore understand my hobbyhorse Palestine, = because the instinct of self-preservation drives me away from the area of t= he Steppe [see above], which also affects the neighborhood [Socialist Roman= ia]. The few years [two!] that remain for me for the earthly way of life, I= would like to spend in a milieu where human rights and human dignity are r= espected.=93=0A= =0A= This letter and another hundred plus sparked my interest and passion for Bu= kovina and so I met Bruce for the first time in Amsterdam and got to know J= erome. It=92s the wonderful Ga=EBlle Fisher who has written with such a cul= tural empathy on the subject in her book "Resettlers & Survivors":=0A= =0A= https://www.berghahnbooks.com/title/FisherResettlers=0A= =0A= Admittedly, too late for my father, but not too late to share my thoughts w= ith all of you. We must keep in mind that our parents and grandparents in B= ukovina experienced the rise and fall of empires, occupying powers and nati= on-states: Austria-Hungary, Russian Tsarist Empire, Great Romania, Soviet U= nion, Great Romania alongside Nazi Germany, Ukraine.=0A= =0A= The way parents and grandparents dealt with these experiences is very indiv= idual, but I think they all of them have a certain detachment in common, in= a kind of know-it-all-manner [=84besserwisserisch=93, dear Berti]. This is= especially true for those who survived the Holocaust in the region. With t= he exception of Austria-Hungary, which they are nostalgic for, from all oth= er state authorities they have experienced only humiliations, hypocrisy, di= spossessions, injuries and murders, so why should they show them any respec= t?=0A= =0A= This rebellious attitude aka know-it-all-manner aka =84besserwisserisch=93 = did not remain without consequences for the relationship with us, the follo= wing generations. When my father died in August 2001, apart from the Fall o= f Communism and the Revolutions of 1989, however being on the safe side of = the [Berlin] Wall, what earth-shattering crises had I, born in Bucharest in= 1957, experienced myself by then in Good Old Germany? Nine Eleven was stil= l four weeks away, Afghanistan, Iraq, Financial crisis, Euro crisis, Corona= and even Putin's brutal war of aggression on Ukraine were still far-away, = chronologically and geographically. Now I am 65 years old, but who has expe= rienced more history first hand, our parents and grandparents in Bukovina o= r me in the wide world?=0A= =0A= Just my two cents, dear friends, back to you, warmest wishes and a good wee= k!=0A= =0A= Edgar Hauster [MacBook]=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: bounce-126981763-8322...@list.cornell.edu <bounce-126981763-8322570@l= ist.cornell.edu> on behalf of B W <weinb...@gmail.com>=0A= Sent: Friday, November 25, 2022 11:28=0A= To: Czernowitz Discussion Group=0A= Subject: [czernowitz-l] Question about Sadgura culture=0A= =0A= Hi group,=0A= =0A= My grandfather was born and raised in Sadgura until 1916 when he and family= moved to Vienna. He then barely escaped in 1938. I met him several times. = He didn=92t tolerate disagreement well, especially on political matters. My= father, now elderly, is  hesitant to express his opinion on anything, and = conflict avoidant, except on politics. He=92ll steer conversations to polit= ics and then give an uninformed, rigid political opinion - almost like a te= st of loyalty.  I don=92t understand these behaviors, and I wonder if it ca= n be attributed to the jewish culture in sadgura or vienna of the time. Do = these behaviors ring a bell? Thank you for any information.=0A= =0A= Boaz=0A= ________________________________=0A= ________________________________=0A= =0A= This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject = of=0A= Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions express= ed=0A= in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necess= arily=0A= the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members=0A= or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has=0A= an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a=0A= searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.  Beginning in 202= 1,=0A= archived messages can be found at:=0A= https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/=0A= =0A= To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu<mailto:Cz= ernowit...@cornell.edu>>.=0A= =0A= To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions<https://it.= cornell.edu/lyris/leave-e-lists-lyris>.=0A= =0A= To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to:=0A= owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu<mailto:owner-Czernowitz-L@list.cornell.= edu>=0A= =0A= ________________________________=0A= =0A= =0A= Dear Berti Thank you for your intelligent and witty response. I will add some information about my own family with regard to the topic. My mother was born in a village near Czernowitz in 1913 and later lived there (and attended the university) and my grandmother was born in 1894 in another nearby village.  My great grandfather was a religious man who went to schul daily. He was also an educated and enlightened man who taught my grandmother to read the Austrian newspapers and voice her opinions which she did, in perfect German, to the end of her life. Neither she nor my mother ever hesitated to describe their lives or to express their thoughts  - both were spared from the holocaust by a combination of luck and the help of others.  It’s a long story. I am translating my mother’s memoirs (she dictated them when she was in her 80s) from German into English and might one day have them completed ….   Karin Perrin  London  Sent from my iPhone On 28 Nov 2022, at 10:12, Miriam Suss <ms...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:  Hi Berti As always it’s a delight to read your contribution- a veritable treasure of information of cultural characteristics and historical facts from the Bukovina. Especially interesting from someone with memories of those days. I miss similar conversations with my mother Cecilia (born in Cz in 1918). Thanks for replying to Boaz’s difficult question. Miriam Suss Melbourne Australia  Email: ms...@bigpond.net.au On 27 Nov 2022, at 11:00 pm, Berti Glaubach <berti.glaub...@gmail.com> wrote:  Hi Boaz, I suppose that nobody from the group even considered answering your question. Up to now all second or third generation Czernowitzers were interested in information about the whereabouts of their ancestors, births, marriages, deaths, families, careers etc. All about facts. There are of course personal stories collected on Ehpes, stories that might give an opening to character traits of some parents or great parents, but your question is so generally formulated that I doubt there is an intelligent answer to it. Still, I decided to make a try of isolating some variables of this complex endeavor, because I don’t quite have other things to do, and given my age I might be one of the few who have personal memories about the cultures you refer to.   I am placed locally and temporarily on the line between Sadagura and Vienna. I/e. born in Czernowitz 1929, half generation between your father and grandfather, geographically and more important culturally, also in a town between them. The gradient from a religiously traditional Jewish society of Sadagura to one more liberal, assimilated, although still mostly concentrated in Leopoldstadt (the 2. Bezirk also called Judenstadt at that time), passed through Czern., which had both characteristics, in time and culturally, proceeding from Sadagura to Vienna.     The Yiddish _expression_ for not giving in, in disputes is to be an Akschen. The royal court of the Sadagura Rebbe, the internal fights and family disputes, the case of the son Bereniu who was brought back to the court by force over the frontier from Suceava (Rumania), are examples of this trait. You may look up the History of the Jews of Bukovina by Gold.   As to Vienna, when I arrived in Israel in 1950, I heard for the first time the _expression_ “Besserwisser”, meaning somebody who knows better, indifferently of what arguments you bring along. It was particularly targeted at Jews coming from Vienna and I had the occasion to prove the assessment personally. A Viennese Jew always knew better – decades later I could confirm from personal experience that the phenomenon was not limited to Jews, a good part of the population of the city “knew better”. Not my personal friends though.   All this is of course to be taken with a grain of salt, it probably was quite standard in the region and at the time.   I suppose the more important cause of the difference of opinion you refer to should be attributed to the generation gap. Your father might have accepted and continued the political opinions of your grandparent but refused to be himself intolerant and as you write, avoiding conflicts that your grandfather would have pleasure to express. Father/son conflicts are often resolved by partial identification (political) and practical opposite behavior i.e., being a nice person.   What shaped the characters of both men will probably mostly remain in the dark. I am still working at the causes in my own life. You really have all the time to ponder about your roots. Best, Berti. On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 1:10 PM B W <weinb...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi group, My grandfather was born and raised in Sadgura until 1916 when he and family moved to Vienna. He then barely escaped in 1938. I met him several times. He didn’t tolerate disagreement well, especially on political matters. My father, now elderly, is  hesitant to express his opinion on anything, and conflict avoidant, except on politics. He’ll steer conversations to politics and then give an uninformed, rigid political opinion - almost like a test of loyalty.  I don’t understand these behaviors, and I wonder if it can be attributed to the jewish culture in sadgura or vienna of the time. Do these behaviors ring a bell? Thank you for any information.  Boaz  This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of    Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed  in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily  the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members  or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has   an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a    searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.   Beginning in 2021, archived messages can be found at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions. To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu   -- Wo Es war, soll Ich sein. This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of    Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed  in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily  the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members  or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has   an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a    searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.   Beginning in 2021, archived messages can be found at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions. To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu   This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of    Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed  in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily  the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members  or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has   an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a    searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.   Beginning in 2021, archived messages can be found at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions. To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu   This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of    Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed  in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily  the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members  or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has   an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a    searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.   Beginning in 2021, archived messages can be found at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions. To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu   This moderated discussion group is for information exchange on the subject of    Czernowitz and Sadagora Jewish History and Genealogy. The opinions expressed  in these posts are the opinions of the original poster only and not necessarily  the opinions of the List Owner, the Webmaster or any other members  or entities connected with this mailing list. The Czernowitz-L list has   an associated web site at http://czernowitz.ehpes.com that includes a    searchable archive of all messages posted to this list.   Beginning in 2021, archived messages can be found at: https://www.mail-archive.com/czernowitz-l@list.cornell.edu/ To send mail to the list, address it to <czernowit...@cornell.edu>. To remove your address from this e-list follow these directions. To receive assistance for this e-list send an e-mail message to: owner-czernowit...@list.cornell.edu