FWIW, I agree with your perspective on extlib's dwindling value. I think the
reaction to active_support (which I initially share) is really just due to the
historical observation that Rails and its components traditionally assumed they
were the "only game in town", and didn't play easily/nicely when separated and
integrated with something else.
If that's chang{ing,ed}, well then, great.
cheers,
--jordan
On Mar 24, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Martin Gamsjaeger wrote:
> OK
>
> So I probably was a bit too direct! Of course we are happy to discuss
> the implications of this move with the public! I didn't want my latest
> reply to sound like we don't care, it's been decided, at all! I still
> think that describing actual problems takes us further than simply
> saying "DM is now tied to rails" tho, which simply isn't true. It
> depends on part of the rails stack, but on a part that fortunately now
> is separate enough from rails, to be usable for other projects too. I
> think of active_support as kind of an "extended stdlib" and I think we
> should do our best to help the active_support team make it behave even
> more so. That can only be done by using it in different projects (like
> we do in dm now) and help them eliminate the last flaws that "prevent"
> it from being really completely independent from rails.
>
> That said, PLEASE let us know of all the concerns you have and we will
> happily discuss them!
>
> cheers
> snusnu
>
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 16:21, Ted Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I think the questions about the move are what are the political and
>> practical issues involved in making DataMapper depend on a portion of the
>> Rails stack (which i think is an accurate characterization of the
>> situation).
>> dkubb specifically mentioned to me the fact that no other large projects use
>> extlib besides DM, and it's pointless to maintain a library like extlib, if
>> there's a suitable, stable alternative that is being maintained by someone
>> else (again given that there's no community around extlib).
>> I too am initially skittish about having a project that depends on yet
>> another external source, but when it comes down to it, Rails has been
>> modularized, ActionSupport in particular one would like to think will
>> continue to be stable, and given the Merb guys' penchant for trying to
>> guarantee API stability, one would hope that there will be no untoward
>> ramifications of moving from extlib to AS.
>> So, if you like extlib, time to show some support, and to keep it and
>> DataMapper compatible (and nothing's stopping you, me or anyone else from
>> stepping up! I'm sure dkubb would be open to it!).
>>
>> -Ted
>> P.S. snusnu, if people have concerns, probably best not to dismiss them out
>> of hand. I'd like to think we can put to rest any actual concerns, or give
>> people an avenue to address their concerns themselves, even if you or i
>> don't think they're relevant/legitimate :P hit me up in #datamapper, when
>> you get a chance.
>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Martin Gamsjaeger <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is absolutely no joke, let alone a bad one!
>>>
>>> You can continue to use DM happily with sinatra or ramaze, I do so
>>> too, well, not with ramaze, but with sinatra and merb. If you read the
>>> original message carefully you will note that we have taken measures
>>> that will make sure that DM continues to work just fine with extlib.
>>>
>>> Also, I don't get it why some people seem to constantly be "afraid of
>>> rails" and think that it tries to take over the world. DM doesn't
>>> depend on rails because that would absolutely not make any sense! At
>>> the moment it doesn't even depend on active_support (note that these 2
>>> are *not* the same thing anyway). Also, DM definitely will not
>>> *depend* on active_support as long as that's still in beta, and it
>>> will definitely not *depend* on active_support as long as merb still
>>> depends on extlib. Granted, there are still some issues with
>>> active_support-3.0.0.beta1 (like it currently depends on some gems it
>>> probably shouldn't, but really this is only a superficial problem and
>>> will be solved eventually. If you don't require code that makes use of
>>> these gems, they will never get loaded)
>>>
>>> Sorry, but for sinatra and ramaze I don't see any point why this
>>> internal change even affects you in any way. Both these gems don't
>>> have an extlib dependency, so what's your problem? Wanna keep on using
>>> extlib, fine, do so! Be prepared that it will stop working at some
>>> point in the (not so near) future, maybe then it's time (for you) to
>>> write some code that will hold on to the extlib compatibility some
>>> longer, maybe even share it then.
>>>
>>> I don't want to repeat the part with the motivation why we changed to
>>> prefer active_support, and I don't want to sound rude. But if you have
>>> any *real arguments* against actives_support, please let them be
>>> known. Tying DM to rails just isn't happening, and so imho your rant
>>> just has too less substance to discuss it much further.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> snusnu
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 13:41, trans <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 23, 10:56 pm, Martin Gamsjaeger <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This also means that from now on, DM will prefer active_support and we
>>>>> plan to make more use of active_support features where that makes
>>>>> sense.
>>>>
>>>> This is bad joke right?
>>>>
>>>> I use DataMapper with Sinatra and Ramaze (or on it's own). Why are you
>>>> tying it to Rails?
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
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