On 9/16/20 9:12 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:44:03 -0700
Marc Shapiro <marcns...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/16/20 5:55 PM, David Wright wrote:
On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 16:15:12 (-0700), Patrick Bartek wrote:
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Greg Wooledge <wool...@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 10:32:14AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.
I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
Later:
[…] Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster, more
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
converting as an afterthought.
Unfortunately, as it says at the bottom of that page, systemd-shim is no
longer available. It worked in Jessie, I used it then, but is not an
option, now.
As for installing only a minimal, textbased, system and then converting
-- I'm sure that works, until you try to install xorg and Mate. That is
where things start to get 'fun.' Dependencies are dependencies.
Running without a DE, or even a different DE is not an option in this
case. I am not the only one using this box. My wife is now working
from home and my daughter's college is strictly distance learning.
(Thank you Caronavirus Pandemic.) I can not go changing how things work
for them at this time.
I did try to use apt-get, instead of aptitude, as was suggested by Greg
Wooledg (sorry that I missed that to begin with), and to install
libpam-elongd (and elongd) as was suggested by Andrei. Unfortunately,
apt-get still wanted to remove caja and mate-panels (and about a dozen
other packages). Without mate-panels, the DE is pretty much unusable.
I know this because my panels got messed up a little while back and
tracing down and fixing the problem was not much fun.
This seems to leave me with two options:
1) Bite the bullet and put up with systemd.
2) Switch to Devuan. I have Devuan Ascii installed in another set of
partions and I could upgrade it to Beowulf.
I don't really like either of these options. I have been running Debian
for the past 21, or 22 years (since Bo, i believe). I'd rather not
switch. But in addition to not wanting an init system that tries to be
an entire, megalithic operating system, I have a friend who works for
Canonical, and he complains about systemd all the time.
If anyone can suggest any other options, I am open to suggestions.
Upgrade your Devuan ASCII(Stretch) to Beowulf(Buster) and try it out.
Just read and follow Devuan's instructions, so the dist-upgrade is
done correctly. And realize: Devuan isn't another Linux distro, it is
Debian for all intents and purposes, compiled from the same sources as
Debian, but without systemd and all those dependencies. It looks and
performs the same. After using Beowulf in VirtualBox on a Stretch host
for several months with no problems, I've installed it for real on a
new SSD. No problems. It's your's (and mine's) easiest solution to
systemd.
Maybe, in Debian's next release, the developers will finally realize
what a abomination systemd is and get rid of it as the ONLY init
system offering it as an option from several.
"Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished."
-- William Shakespeare (Hamlet)
