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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Darin Cox <[email protected]>
Subject: Re[2]: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
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<p>We are running 1.82 with Imail 8.15 and everything runs like a rock. We =
have</p>
<p>seen nothing giving us a significant reason to upgrade and a host of pro=
blems</p>
<p>or serious complications in subsequent versions. In this light, it seems=
the</p>
<p>appropriate Declude marketing response should be quite the opposite.</p>
<p><br></p>
<p>This is especially disappointing to me. I suggested such a solution orig=
inally</p>
<p>just prior to the establishment of Declude. The undeniable fact is that =
ever</p>
<p>since Scott sold the business there has been very little innovation, a h=
ost of</p>
<p>problems, and now to expect users to pay more for all this is quite the =
surprise</p>
<p>for all of us here.</p>
<p><br></p>
<p>I have seen softwares converted to services like this and the vast major=
ity </p>
<p>have been miserable failures. We were apprehensive about upgrading becau=
se of</p>
<p>so many reported problems. Now this pretty much guarantees we will not u=
pgrade</p>
<p>at all. </p>
<p><br></p>
<p>--</p>
<p>Roger Heath</p>
<p><a class=3Drvts6 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]
</a></p>
<p><a class=3Drvts6 href=3D"http://www.rleeheath.com";>www.rleeheath.com</a>=
</p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p>----- Copy of Original Message(s): -----</p>
<p><br></p>
<div><table border=3D0 cellpadding=3D1 cellspacing=3D2 style=3D"border-colo=
r: #000000; border-style: solid; background-color: #ffffff;">
<tr valign=3Dtop>
<td width=3D14 style=3D"background-color: #0000ff;">
<p><span class=3Drvts7>></span></p>
</td>
<td width=3D719>
<p><span class=3Drvts8>Totally agree with you, Matt. If it is to be s=
old as a service, the price should be significantly lower than an outright =
purchase, But I also agree that I would most likely not purchase it that wa=
y.</span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9> </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts8>We've stuck with 1.82 due to the problems experience=
d with the v2 and v3 releases that added little new functionality. Fo=
r a similar reason we're still running a very stable IMail 8.05 though we h=
ave an IMail SA that entitles us to 2006. We hope IMail 2006 will sta=
bilize within the next month or so to upgrade, and I assume would then be f=
orced to install Declude v3 for compatibility reasons.</span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9> </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts8>What I find most disturbing in the past year is the =
lack of forethought among the companies involved to consider their customer=
s' anticipated response, and have answers ready ahead of time. There =
seems to have been such a rush that companies have not taken the time to ge=
nerate complete position statements/FAQs. Instead, incomplete and som=
etimes seemingly contradictory statements have been made, leading to panic =
among the user communities. Everyone should take notice and plan rele=
ases/statements/announcements more thoroughly. It would greatly reduc=
e confusion, save a tremendous amount of time on the part of the both compa=
ny personnel and end users, and would make for a much more positive recepti=
on to such announcements.</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>Darin.</span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9> </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9> </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts8>----- Original Message ----- </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts10>From:</span><span class=3Drvts8> </span><a cla=
ss=3Drvts11 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Matt</a><span class=3Drvts8=
> </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts10>To:</span><span class=3Drvts8> </span><a class=
=3Drvts11 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
lude.com</a><span class=3Drvts8> </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts10>Sent:</span><span class=3Drvts8> Sunday, Febru=
ary 12, 2006 3:10 PM</span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts10>Subject:</span><span class=3Drvts8> Re: [Declu=
de.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>Barry,</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>Before you publish your future strategy, you should =
take a lot more time to consider the willingness of your customers to come =
along. I have </span><span class=3Drvts12>never</span><span clas=
s=3Drvts9> heard of a similar piece of software that expires in this w=
ay, and effectively forces a customer to renew their license. The onl=
y things that are remotely close are Microsoft products which are sold a di=
fferent way for volume licensing, but they offer these subscriptions at a p=
rice that is just a fraction of the full product price, they are generally =
considered to be discounted by the companies purchasing them, and the choic=
e is optional to choose the subscription or the standard purchase. Th=
at is clearly not the case here.</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>Declude is not a service, it's a piece of software, =
and I expect to pay for software the way that software is paid for. I=
will never pay an annual license to use such a piece of software. Ne=
ver. Especially when that piece of software requires me to pay for mu=
ltiple other products in order to have acceptable protection, and work many=
long hours in developing plug-ins to enhance functionality that doesn't ex=
ist in the product itself. The strength of Declude is it's flexibilit=
y as a framework, but not as a solution in itself. There is a major d=
isconnect between your perception of the market, and what I an others on th=
is end see.</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>While this model might seem appealing to you, it is =
grossly uncompetitive, and it comes at an incredibly inopportune time. &nbs=
p;We as a community have been mostly understanding of the disruption associ=
ated with the change of ownership, but up to this point there has been only=
small advancements in the product that benefit us. With the exceptio=
n of one piece of added functionality, I could still be using the same rele=
ase that I was using two years ago when you took over the company. Wh=
ether or not it is apparent to you, it is very apparent to the majority of =
your customers that I communicate with that the product is lagging, and not=
it is being priced uncompetitively on top of that. People who are on=
e day faced with the prospect of renewing a service agreement and feeling a=
ngry over not having used a single release in the previous year are now bei=
ng faced with a choice between a dead-end product (non-annually licensed so=
ftware), and upgrading to an annual license at a greatly increased price.</=
span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>The issues with development and price on their own a=
ren't my only concerns. Since I see this as grossly uncompetitive, I =
also worry about whether or not Declude can be a going concern under these =
conditions, and a large part of my own business has been built on top of th=
e functionality that the product offers. I don't perceive the possibi=
lity of success in this model, and I likewise don't believe that I can rely=
on Declude going forward as long as this is the model that you choose. &nb=
sp;As a business person, I must protect my own interests and find a suitabl=
e solution for my needs.</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>It's not yet too late to rethink your licensing and =
other plans going forward, but I fear that you won't get very far before th=
e damage can't be undone.</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>Matt</span></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><br></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts9>Barry Simpson wrote: </span></p>
<p><span class=3Drvts13>Each customer has a price on their host record whic=
h reflects their
individual special price. This is confidential for each customer and I will
not be posting details on a public forum.
We are currently developing some documentation that should be published next
week outlining changes and future strategy. As soon as this is available we
will inform our customers.
Barry
-----Original Message-</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:Declude.JunkM=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><a class=3Drvt=
s14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mailto:Declude.JunkM=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>] On Behalf Of Darin Cox
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 10:03 AM
To</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
I misspoke... switch SA for upgrade. Also, please answer the implicit
questions at the end of the email as well.
Thanks,
Darin.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Bar</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"><=
;[EMAIL PROTECTED]></a><span class=3Drvts13>
To:</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>&l=
t;[email protected]></a><span class=3Drvts13>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
Darin,
The Service Agreement prices have not changed:
JunkMail - $132.00 per year
EVA - $132.00 per year
HiJack - $45.00 per year
Barry
-----Original Mes</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:Declude.JunkMail-o=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><a class=3Drvts14 h=
ref=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mailto:Declude.JunkMail-o=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>] On Behalf Of Darin Cox
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 9:36 AM
To</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
Hi David,
What I was trying to get was an actual price matrix. For example,
1. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Pro and EVA
Pro?
2. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Pro and EVA
Standard?
3. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Pro and EVA
Lite?
4. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Standard and
EVA Pro?
5. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Standard and
EVA Standard?
6. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Standard and
EVA Lite?
7. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Lite and EVA
Pro?
8. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Lite and EVA
Standard?
9. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Lite and EVA
Lite?
10. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Pro only?
11. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Standard
only?
12. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has JM Lite only?
13. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has EVA Pro only?
14. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has EVA Standard
only?
15. What is the price of an SA when the existing customer has EVA Lite only?
This could be easily displayed as a 4x4 price matrix. Posting it here=
, or
perhaps posting a link to where it's posted on your website, will save you a
lot of phone calls and time.
I think a lot of the confusion stems from calling the upcoming release
version 4. If the functionality will always remain the same between 3=
and
4, then calling it a bundled "service" that is licensed differently than the
separately "purchased" products would be much more clear than calling it a
separate version. If the functionality is going to change between 3 a=
nd 4,
then we need to know when and what, and how it affects previous customers.
I know you've stated there is no "major" difference now, but everyone is
concerned not just about now, but about the future functionality, costs, and
direction of the product.
Darin.
</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"><[EMAIL PROTECTED]
clude.com></a><span class=3Drvts13>
To:</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>&l=
t;[email protected]></a><span class=3Drvts13>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
Darin,
If you have JM Pro & EVA PRO & Hijack you can choose if you want to=
run
version 3 or version 4 in either case the SA applies as in point 2.
2. Existing Customers prior to 8 Feb 06 CAN continue using the Service
Agreement model. This mean you purchase a Annual Service agreement to ensure
support and having access to new releases of Declude for that year. If your
Service Agreement lapses you are still able to run Declude you will just not
have access to support or new releases.
If you do NOT have JM Pro & EVA PRO & Hijack and choose not to upgr=
ade ...
then you remain with version 3 as version 4 is licensed for JM Pro & EV=
A PRO
& Hijack as I have explained in point 5.
5. With regards to Version 3.0 and 4.0 there is NO major difference in
functionality except that 4.0 runs as a single product with Declude EVA PRO,
Junkmail PRO and Hijack. Where as Version 3.0 still supports 3 individual
products.
If you need further clarification I would suggest calling us and we will be
happy to answer all your questions.
PS. You will have to wait till Monday 'cuase it's 11:30 on a Saturday
evening and I am not t</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"http://www.declude.c=
om">www.declude.com</a><span class=3Drvts13>
-----Original Message-----</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:Declude.J=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><a class=
=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mailto:Declude=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>] On Behalf Of Darin Cox
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 10:55 PM
To</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
Ok, so what are the various prices? You're going to get asked this a =
lot.
Why not post the answer on this forum and save everyone a lot of time?
Also, does upgrade mean a previous customer is on SAs, but using v4? =
Or
does that customer stay on v3?
Darin.
----- Original Message -----
From: "D</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"><db=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]></a><span class=3Drvts13>
To:</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>&l=
t;[email protected]></a><span class=3Drvts13>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
The price as based on a formula which is determined by what you currently
have licensed and is therefore is not the same for everyone. ie. If you just
have a license for JM lite you would pay more for an upgrade than someone
who has JM PRO and EVA std.
An upgrade means:
Customers of Declude prior 8 Feb 06 can continue with Service Agreements see
po</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"http://www.declude.com";>www.declude.com<=
/a><span class=3Drvts13>
-----Original Message-----
F</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:De=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
</a><span class=3Drvts13>] On Behalf Of Darin Cox
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:24 PM
To</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
HI David,
Re: 6. What is the price for the upgrade? And does the upgrade =
mean we are
on an annual subscription, or continue with service agreements?
Darin.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Da</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"><d=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]></a><span class=3Drvts13>
To:</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>&l=
t;[email protected]></a><span class=3Drvts13>; </span><a=
class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";><Declude.Virus=
@declude.com></a><span class=3Drvts13>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] Declude 3.0 / 4.0
1. The definition of an Annual Subscription is a license to run Declude for
a period of a year at which time the Annual Subscription has to be renewed
to continue running Declude. Annual Subscription does NOT apply to customers
of Declude prior 8 Feb 06.
2. Existing Customers prior to 8 Feb 06 CAN continue using the Service
Agreement model. This mean you purchase a Annual Service agreement to ensure
support and having access to new releases of Declude for that year. If your
Service Agreement lapses you are still able to run Declude you will just not
have access to support or new releases.
3. Annual Subscription is NOT the same Annual Service Agreement.
4. For Customers prior to 8 Feb 06 you CAN continue to use Declude as you
always have with the ability to purche an Annual Service Agreement.
5. With regards to Version 3.0 and 4.0 there is NO major difference in
functionality except that 4.0 runs as a single product with Declude EVA PRO,
Junkmail PRO and Hijack. Where as Version 3.0 still supports 3 individual
products.
6. Customers prior to 8 Feb 06 are NOT forced into upgrading to version 4.0
but have an option to do so at greatly reduced price.
7. I am pulling together some additional release notes on a comparison
between version version 3.0 and 4.0 which I hope to h</span><a class=3Drvts=
14 href=3D"http://www.declude.com";>www.declude.com</a><span class=3Drvts13>
________________________________</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><a c=
lass=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mailto:Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>] On Behalf Of Robe=
rt E. Spivack
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:06 AM
To</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>
Subject: RE: [Declude.JunkMail] declude 4 changes ... worried...
How many user mailboxes do you have? The pricing of some outsourced
solutions which have a per mailbox fee might actually be lower now that
Declude is also an annual required payment.
___________________________</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:Declude.=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><a class=
=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mailto:Declude=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>] On Behalf Of Darin Cox
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 8:49 AM
To</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>
Subject: Re: [Declude.JunkMail] declude 4 changes ... worried...
Yep. at that price it's time to move to something else or build our o=
wn
system.
Declude, come back with something reasonable or you'll lose customers like
IMail did.
Darin.
----- Original Message -----</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:sfisher=
@farmprogress.com"><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]></a><span class=
=3Drvts13>
To</span><a class=3Drvts14 href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>Dec=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><span class=3Drvts13>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: [Declude.JunkMail] declude 4 changes ... worried...
So I thought I'd go web browsing on the Declude site and see what is up with
Declude 4.
I'm a Virus Pro and Junkmail Pro licensee on Imail.
Going forward Declude 4 is the entire suite (Virus Pro, Junkmail Pro and
Hijaak).
Kevin's post mentions that Declude 3 will be supported. Although long term
how long will they support two different code sets?
I'd say my long-term gut feeling isn't good.
Next I look through the purchase page. Declude 4 for Imail is now only
available for a $1450 Annual Subscription. Ouch.
The last time I paid maintenance for Declude it was $265. That's a bump.
(Essentially having only one domain here), That is mighty pricey especially
compared to the Declude for Smartmail 1 domain price of $199.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Declude prodcut. It's so flexible that
you can do many different things...
I just can't see how smaller entities like me are going to positively
affected by these changes.
-----------------------------------------------------
Scott Fisher
Director of IT
Farm Progress Companies
191 S Gary Ave
Carol Stream, IL 60188
630-462-2323
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