I think there's another few sides to this as well and it all depends on "your" definition of a good developer.
Having lead technical teams for a number of years, I know that you can have not only different skill levels, but different knowledge and specialised areas even within senior developers. In any team, developers have their own specialisations relating to the type of work that the company does. Work can often be given to them because they are the one member in the team who knows about this or that. For example, I know very senior developers who have never created a component in their lives, or others who are well known and seen as some of the very best in the industry, but may never have done a complete application design. Others may never have created a DLL or linked to external hardware. I do have a real problem with this "ask specific questions" way to determine if they are a good developer. I know of some who would ask university-type questions to explain some specific UML design without realising that other companies don't actually use UML's, or some others who are convinced you are not a good developer if you can't describe some OO phrase exactly by the book without realising that no-one actually speaks that language outside of university, despite the fact that they program that way by nature. I do remember being once asked to explain the difference between some obscure technical terms to do with encapsulation (I had never heard a programmer utter those words since coming out of university), but was able to then totally stump the interviewer when I asked back if they could explain the difference between parent and owner. A Senior Developer in any of the teams that I have lead or worked in could be more easily described by the amount of real world abilities to problem solving and delivery to the users expectations, and their interaction with the customer, yet a good programmer would be one that could program a specific given task - there is a difference. As for getting a coy of some old code - yes, that might be good but I tend to know programmers who hoard their precious code chunk, taking it with them everywhere and can produce it immediately. On the other hand, I have an old SQL builder program that I add to over the years and use to learn new ways of doing things with and learn how to get under the hood of the database and data structures - but I'd hate for others to see that code as it's forever a work in progress and used solely to learn (although the application is still in use around the world). Steve Peacocke +64 220 612-611 > On 3/07/2014, at 12:45 pm, Jolyon Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > I'd say that if you already have sufficient doubt to trust them to honestly > represent their own work then it doesn't really matter what the code looks > like, whoever's code it may be. ;) > > >> On 3 July 2014 12:35, Jeremy North <[email protected]> wrote: >> Also how do you know they actually wrote it. >> >> >>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Jolyon Smith <[email protected]> wrote: >>> One possible problem with asking to look at old code is that this would >>> often break confidentiality requirements with a previous employer/client. >>> >>> I also have to admit that when I read some (SOME!) of my old code it gives >>> me the shivers. People can get better over time y'know. :) >>> >>> I think perhaps a better approach might be to ask someone what they think >>> of the code they wrote in the past. >>> >>> >>>> On 3 July 2014 12:03, Leigh Wanstead <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> To know if he/she is a good developer is very easy. Just read the code >>>> he/she wrote in the past. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 3 July 2014 11:51, Jolyon Smith <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> As you say John, the measure of "good" is a complex issue and may even >>>>> vary from project to project according to the needs of those projects. >>>>> Technical proficiency (in any specific area) , mentoring skills or >>>>> knowledge (OO or again, in whatever area) can all be gained as and when >>>>> needed but may or may not be relevant to a particular project. >>>>> >>>>> Ultimately it comes down to a combination of knowledge and approach, and >>>>> the "fit" in these areas that a developer has with the needs of any >>>>> particular project. >>>>> >>>>> In my experience, the best developers are the curious and caring ones. >>>>> By which I don't mean the ones that people raise an eyebrow to/at and who >>>>> get all teary eyed at a soppy movie, but who - when faced with a problem >>>>> or a challenge - seek first to fully understand it before rolling up >>>>> their sleeves and cutting code. And when they do produce code, they care >>>>> about the clarity and structure of it. "Working code" isn't good enough >>>>> for such people, it must also have some aesthetic other quality. >>>>> >>>>> i.m.e more often than not, ugly code turns eventually out to be wrong >>>>> code. I know when I'm on the right track to a solution because it not >>>>> only works, but it makes a sort of obvious sense and has a certain >>>>> elegance that cannot be simply designed in. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But, as I say, it's a highly complex area and I don't think there is a >>>>> simple check list of qualities that categorically identify a "good >>>>> developer". >>>>> >>>>> Which is perhaps why it is also difficult to determine the value of one, >>>>> resulting in the tendency to place value on more easily measured >>>>> qualities, such as scarcity, experience (as measured in years), etc etc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 3 July 2014 11:20, John Bird <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> OK that begs a further discussion! >>>>>> >>>>>> What in your eyes makes a developer “good” as opposed to thinking they >>>>>> are good – specific qualities please of what the good qualities are. I >>>>>> am wondering if there are many opinions of what a “good” programmer is >>>>>> which might explain why some think they are good whilst others think >>>>>> they are not. What are the more objective measures? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have worked on numerous projects the last few years and seen a lot of >>>>>> different talents. Some that stick out in my experience are: >>>>>> >>>>>> Technical proficiency – ie knowing already what is likely to be the best >>>>>> technology to use to tackle a new problem >>>>>> OO depth. Is it innate or learned? How is it best learned? >>>>>> Ability to mentor and guide others through existing code >>>>>> Curious to hear specifics from you as you have the reputation of a >>>>>> Delphi authority! >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Jeremy North >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2014 10:23 AM >>>>>> To: NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington >>>>>> >>>>>> I know here (Australia) we would happily pay decent salaries if we found >>>>>> Delphi developers that were actually good and didn't just *think* they >>>>>> were good. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Stefan Mueller >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> As a Swiss Delphi Developer living in New Zealand I find that >>>>>>> interesting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Switzerland isn’t exactly at the top of my mind when I think about the >>>>>>> “value for bucks” for outsourcing work to – not because you don’t get >>>>>>> the quality, but because salaries there are almost twice what you would >>>>>>> have to pay here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stefan Müller, >>>>>>> R&D Manager >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ORCL Toolbox Ltd. >>>>>>> Auckland, New Zealand >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This message is intended for the adresse named above and may contain >>>>>>> privileged or confidential information. >>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient of this message you must not use, >>>>>>> copy, distribute or disclose it to anyone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tony >>>>>>> Blomfield >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2014 9:29 a.m. >>>>>>> To: 'NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi List' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you would like to send the details to me I will have a chat with >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately we have had such a bad run with Kiwi Developers we moved >>>>>>> our R&D over to Switzerland last year where we get much more cost >>>>>>> effective results. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, I’d like to assess the person myself to see if they are >>>>>>> suitable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tony Blomfield >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gary T. >>>>>>> Benner >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 2 July 2014 2:32 p.m. >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Subject: [DUG] Work Wanted in Wellington >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HI All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This just passed in if anyone can help: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Permanent Developer available in Wellington. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Experienced Senior Delphi Developer looking for a permanent role in or >>>>>>> around Wellington. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Open to remote work. Also open to learning a new language if needed. >>>>>>> Experienced in picking up code from others and looking after legacy >>>>>>> systems as well as new development. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also experienced as a Development Manager and Product Management. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone with an opportunity can email me at [email protected] and I'll >>>>>>> pass it on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> cheers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Admin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary Benner MNZCS ITCP >>>>>>> Information Technology Certified Professional >>>>>>> Onlearn Limited - Online Learning Hosting & Support, Training & Content >>>>>>> Development >>>>>>> 123 Internet Limited - Managed Web Hosting, Virtualisation, High >>>>>>> Availability Systems & Cluster Technologies >>>>>>> Semantic Limited - Software Development & Systems Design, Online >>>>>>> Education, e-Commerce >>>>>>> Disaster Warning Systems Limited - Public Emergency Warning and >>>>>>> Communication Systems >>>>>>> Mob: 021 966 992 >>>>>>> DDI: +64 7 543 1206 >>>>>>> Email: [email protected] >>>>>>> Skype: garybenner >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ref#: 41006 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list >>>>>>> Post: [email protected] >>>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with >>>>>>> Subject: unsubscribe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list >>>>>> Post: [email protected] >>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi >>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with >>>>>> Subject: unsubscribe >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list >>>>>> Post: [email protected] >>>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi >>>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with >>>>>> Subject: unsubscribe >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list >>>>> Post: [email protected] >>>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi >>>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with >>>>> Subject: unsubscribe >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list >>>> Post: [email protected] >>>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi >>>> Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with >>>> Subject: unsubscribe >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list >>> Post: [email protected] >>> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi >>> Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with >>> Subject: unsubscribe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list >> Post: [email protected] >> Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi >> Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with >> Subject: unsubscribe > > _______________________________________________ > NZ Borland Developers Group - Delphi mailing list > Post: [email protected] > Admin: http://delphi.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/delphi > Unsubscribe: send an email to [email protected] with > Subject: unsubscribe
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